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Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

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Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby tigiblet344 » 17 Mar 2012 22:36

hi all i would just like a bit of a chat about something thats buzzing round my head.

my gyro se is currently running a hadcock 242 integra, i like to use differant carts i have two at present an at ptg 33 and a shure m97xe i sort of mess about every 6 months or so and change them, the hadcock is a pig to set up so for that reason alone i decided to go down the detachable head route and picked up an SME 3009 s2 early version, dont fret all im going to seriously vamp this one up, bits on order new grommet for the arm tube, rewire with incognito silver stuff, better headshells (i need at least two will probably go for the wood yamamoto or ortofon) i may even treat it to a bath in gold or copper, there is a plating firm near me who can do this for very little green stuff. anyway i have obtained the requsite fd200 damper, which was cheaper to buy as part of a sale with another 3009 series 2 imp but a fixed head one(which will be for sale soon very nice it is too boxed etc, might part with the hadcock too) who decides the going price for the fd200 damper kit outrageous. one went for £260 and there is one on fleabay for £275 BIN at present, i just the got arm and damper for £320.

trawling the net there is very little about sme 3009 arms in any guise on the gyro se, but i see plenty about the v and 309, what im toying with is discarding the 4 rubber bedplate grommets as i dont see they will be of benefit on the se, also does anyone know if michell supply screws for the mount as the ones i have are wood screws i will need machine screws. any comments on this combo will be most welcome.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby tigiblet344 » 21 Apr 2012 14:10

update, arm rewired with silver plated ofc copper wire, cleaned, stripped and rebuilt. added an FD200 damper with 100000 cst radio control car silicon fluid. set it up using two carts the shure m97 xe and an AT33 ptg.

wow is all i can say knocked the hadcock 242 integra of its perch then some.

very very pleased, this arm can hold its own against many a modern design and its build and looks feel in a different league.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby Werner » 23 Apr 2012 06:37

If you need something Michell can probably supply.

The GyroDec/SME3009 combination was quite popular in the early
80s, before the Rega RB300 became the de-facto entry level
audiophile arm.

The armboard for the older arm probably differs somewhat from
the one for the 309/IV/V. Check with Michell.
Michell Orbe/SME IV/Lyra Delos/Michell Iso & Orca & Alecto Stereo/Quad ESL-63/Denon DVD-2930/Apogee MiniDAC/Pioneer N-50 streamer
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby TimeMachineMan » 23 Apr 2012 14:20

Werner wrote:If you need something Michell can probably supply.

The GyroDec/SME3009 combination was quite popular in the early
80s, before the Rega RB300 became the de-facto entry level
audiophile arm.

The armboard for the older arm probably differs somewhat from
the one for the 309/IV/V. Check with Michell.


Arm board on my OrGy was the same for 3009 S2 Improved and Series IV.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby TimeMachineMan » 23 Apr 2012 14:25

tigiblet344 wrote:hi all i would just like a bit of a chat about something thats buzzing round my head.

my gyro se is currently running a hadcock 242 integra, i like to use differant carts i have two at present an at ptg 33 and a shure m97xe i sort of mess about every 6 months or so and change them, the hadcock is a pig to set up so for that reason alone i decided to go down the detachable head route and picked up an SME 3009 s2 early version, dont fret all im going to seriously vamp this one up, bits on order new grommet for the arm tube, rewire with incognito silver stuff, better headshells (i need at least two will probably go for the wood yamamoto or ortofon) i may even treat it to a bath in gold or copper, there is a plating firm near me who can do this for very little green stuff. anyway i have obtained the requsite fd200 damper, which was cheaper to buy as part of a sale with another 3009 series 2 imp but a fixed head one(which will be for sale soon very nice it is too boxed etc, might part with the hadcock too) who decides the going price for the fd200 damper kit outrageous. one went for £260 and there is one on fleabay for £275 BIN at present, i just the got arm and damper for £320.

trawling the net there is very little about sme 3009 arms in any guise on the gyro se, but i see plenty about the v and 309, what im toying with is discarding the 4 rubber bedplate grommets as i dont see they will be of benefit on the se, also does anyone know if michell supply screws for the mount as the ones i have are wood screws i will need machine screws. any comments on this combo will be most welcome.


I discarded the rubber grommets and used the hard stainless ones that SME used to have as a spare part. They don't seem to be on the website spares list now.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby tigiblet344 » 27 Apr 2012 16:18

had the arm on the deck for a week or so now, so would like to share my findings.

firstly i have rebuilt the arm basically from scratch and rewired it with 7 strand silver plated wires, these i platted a'la litz style. i then teased ut some cotton wool and stuffed it lightly inside the arm tube. i put rca connectors on it and had a 7mm thick acetel bed plate made at a local to me precision engineering firm, its an exact match to the metal SME one, but denser (no ringing), lighter and structurally much stronger. i purchased two new headshells, cheap ones from maplin, they may not be esoteric and have gold plating, wood and the like but they are solid and don't again ring like the SME one they are bit heavier but far more rigid, and much easier to deal with as they dont have the silly arm lift arrangement of the SME stock headshells. finally the damper was fitted and filled.

fitting was a breeze using the stock michell supplied base plate adding the decoupling kit which is a cheap but worthwhile upgrade, i used puresound silver plated phono interconnects to my tag mac f3 pa10. setting up again a breeze compared to my hadcock 242 which incidentally seems to have disintegrated on removal. i used a littel bit of blu tack on the headshell so that my two carts weighed in at exactly the same weight, this meant i could swap about really easily and quickly (something i missed dearly) the VTF system is easy to do and very accurate no need to risk a stylus on a scale (broke my dl304 doing that) and the alignment gauge works a treat and its so easy to set up just by sliding the arm back and forth. and again very accurate. i had a mint lp guage costing over a hundred quid for the hadcock adn it was never spot on. i got this spot on in 5 mins and used the HFN test record to prove it.

comparisons
i tried the shure m97xe first and it was not much of a differance from the hadcock. i think the whole may be a little too heavy, and i noticed a little bit of sibilance as well. the AT33 PTG was a differant story. WOW like night and day now i know why this cart is so beloved of many on here. and why i have had two over the years. this is a marriage made in heaven. the shure may have a deeper tone to it but its wooly and a bit uncontrolled the AT££ can seem a littel thin to unaccustomed ears but when need the bass comes in tight controleed spade fulls and spadefulls. but the mids and highs are to die for and the SME just allows the AT to sing like a bird. not once did i here any sibilance or spitting, at about 3/4 of a gram more VTF the AT is tracking way way better than the supposed king of trackers the shure.

so i have the AT33 firmly at home again. i may try lowering the VTF a bit from 2 to 1.8 gms which seems to be what everyone else does on the engine.

some one said the 3009 was a popular chioce for the GYRO in an previous era, and that this was replaced by the cheap REGA, i can't imagine the two can be compared. the SME is superbly built, and as is seen everyday to last the test of time mine must be 30 + yrs old. IMHO the SME ive have just fitted, is by some degree better then the Technoarm A that came with the deck when i bought it.

im just wondering what the newer SME 309, IV or V would be like on this, ive heard it can be a bit sterile, and costs a wad or two, will it be money well spent, and im afraid i dont like its looks much compared to 3009.

N.B. all when speaking to SME whilst doing ths to get a couple of bits and advice they are cosidering making an m2 9r like the current series m2 12r j shape arm they produce; now there's a thought. everyone badger SME to make a 9 inch version of the M2.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby lennyw » 25 Jun 2012 11:56

Thanks for the interesting post.

I've just picked up an armless Michell Gyrodec via fleabay. As it comes with the gyropower rather than QC I imagine it's a mid 90s one. I have an old Rega P3 but am loathed to remove the RB300 from it, and would rather hold on to it whole, as it's a classic (perhaps mounting a cheaper cartridge for use with my more knackered records).

I've often seen the SME advert and reviews, so knew that there was something to the company, but hadn't gone much further than that until last night, while browsing the internet and thinking about which arm to get. From a design/aesthetic point of view, the SME 3009 seemed like the perfect partner to the Gyrodec, but as you originally commented, there's not a lot of talk about this combination on the internet.

I have to admit that I'm new to this more intensive side of vinyl (I've had my P3 for 15 odd years, but setting up is a doddle), so this will no doubt be a steep learning curve. There are a few different types of the SME 3009. I'm not interested in having the ability to remove the head, and have read conflicting opinions about whether fixed or removable is best.

Many of the ones listed on fleabay talk of the different weights ("rider weight", "bias weight", "split level weight") and the like that they have. Is there anything I should be sure of getting / avoiding in this context?
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby lennyw » 14 Jul 2012 22:05

@tigiblet344 Thanks for the message. As I'm new to the forum I am unable to reply directly, so I'll do so, in part, here:
In the interim I picked up a MkII Improved Fixed 3009 unused (the chap had bought it new and never gotten around to setting it up) and it's in great condition. It has the strange 4 pin SME socket and cable. All is new, even the bias weight etc were still in the little plastic receptacle in the polyst box!
According to your PM this may not have been a great decision (or rather the best decision from the various SME3009 possibilities), but I've got it now, and for the moment would rather invest in a new cartridge than buy a second arm. It's not that bad, is it?
(I'm going to stick to the current internal cables, and get around to replacing them in the future -- it's a step further than I dare at the moment).
I'm still very new to all this, and am thinking about carts. The Benz Ace S seems to be very well praised (and is only just over my budget), though I'm not sure whether it will match in terms of the arm's weight and incompatibility of desired compliance (a term that was new to me only a few weeks ago, and I'm still trying to get my head around it -- can anyone point me in the direction of an idiot-proof guide to compliance?).
Somewhere during my web-surfing I saw an image of an arm with a brass weight on top cut to fit into the two screws that hold the cart in place (and indeed seemed to be holding the brass plate in place too). Anyone know what this might be called, where I might be able to get one from. Seemed like a great solution, though the blue tack, I guess, would be fine too.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby tigiblet344 » 15 Jul 2012 18:45

not the benz ace for your arm im afraid not unless you have the fluid damper fd200 with it. its 15cu compliance thats denon dl103 territory and wil not like the sme you have at all youd need to add a lto of blu tack to make it heavy enough to compensate.

if you really want a moving coil then for your arm a denon dl304 is the best chice low mass high compliance for a moving coil and tracks brillaintly at 1.2 gms virtually unheard of in mc circles easily available in the uk at anywhere between a shade over 300 quid upto just over 400 get a copy of hi fi news there is a guy ads in ther and i got one off him for 295. ten next choice IMHO would be an audio technica at33 ptg the mk2 is out now. the only issue is the AT will only availble from japan or possiby the state best sourse is audio cubes 2 it weighs in at 699 dollars sniff about you may get it cheaper, there are some jap sellars on ebay quite reputable.it is the cart that all japanese hi fi buffs go for. its my favourite cartridge.

MC carts by nature of the design tend to be lower in compliance than mm carts (more stiff in english) the sme 3009 mk2 imp fixed is specifically designe for use with high compliance MM (soft suspension) carts in particular the shures of the time v15's which the armwill mate with perfectly, the m97xe is the latest high end flavour from shure and comes in at a healthy 70-80 quid, dont let that put you off, give it carefull alignment (a bitch to do) and 1.3 gms of tracking force, about 60-80 hours of burn in (yes it takes thst long) and you will be very surprised its a wonderfully sweet sound, i have one bought it just to see what the fuss was about. and im very pleased with it. i intend to get it retipped by expert stylus with a paratrace diamond. there are a couple of shure v15 mk V xmr's on sale on ebay for around the 400 quid mark. but you won't get a new styus for them when it wears out as they are no longer made. they are supposed to be faboulous though. another to consider is the sonus blue gold which has an incredible cu of 50, this is incredibly soft think rolls royce but should be good in your SME they pop up on ebay regularly NOS from a guy in new youk for around the 100 quid mark, these were highly regarded carts but too soft in the compliance for me to consider.

p.s. i pmd this to you as well.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby Alec124c41 » 16 Jul 2012 02:13

JICO in Japan make SAS stylus replacements for the Shure cartridges, which many of us prefer to the originals.
The Denon DL-301 II is a LOMC cartridge, built like the 304 but with twice the output and half the price. It can be used in a 3009 S2 imp, with some additional mass.
A Grace F-9E is great in that arm, but hard to find.

Cheers,
Alec
Keep them spinning.
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Re: Gyro se latest version and sme 3009 non imp

Postby lennyw » 17 Jul 2012 13:17

Thanks very much for your info tigiblet.

I never realised buying a cartridge would be so complicated (when I bought my Rega P3 the chap in the shop recommended the Denon 304 over the Rega something or other and I took his advice, not realising that any of these other considerations should be made).

Had a look at the fd200 and, as you say, getting one from ebay would cost the same as a new arm, so that's out for the moment. Could of course add weight with coins/blu-tack/purchased weights from ebay, but this might be biting off more than I can chew. The world which I have now entered is so different to what I knew before that I think it would be safer to "start" with the Denon and master setting that up first (which, according to a thread I've just read (viewtopic.php?t=38482), can be a bit fiddly with VTA etc), and then look at a more suitable arm for a Benz (perhaps by then I can afford a Glider) down the line. With small kids around, it's probably unwise to move into the +€500 world for carts...
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