Do you clean new virgin records?

[pivot]

I don't clean them. Why would I? It doesn't make them sound any better.

If you don't clean 'em how do you know they won't sound better?

I think you are in for a surprise. IMHO clean records sound much better then dirty ones. A swipe with a dry discwasher pad isn't "cleaning", it's just making all the records equally dirty.

[charlieblue]

I thoroughly clean all records, new or used. Time at the bench depends on record condition.

New lps are not clean, IMHO. Some 5 years back, I CF-brushed and then played a few high quality pressings of a well respected audiophile vinyl european label. All those records were bought new and sealed. To my dissapointment, the noise and crackle were very present. I am talking rifle fire on the speakers here .

To my surprise, the label suggested that their new sealed records should only be dry brushed and never wet cleaned. This, I never could comprehend .

Question: How difficult is it for a dealer or record shop to open, play, then reseal a record? That would explain the dirt on the surface and into the groove...

PS. Not to be missunderstood, all LPs were exemplary in terms of voicing, transparency, staging, frequency extention and dynamics, and I love them for this. Still, they needed a good cleaning before first play.

[sjam]

Hi, Yes records sometimes look like they're dirty and stained but bottom line is how they sound. You always can clean a new record, but only if proven they sound bad. I'm not against wet cleaning, I used to work in a shop where we had one of the first Keith Monk cleaning machines available and we used them a lot and I know they work with dirty records and take care of fingerprints, but I'm certain that a good new record that is not treated with any cleaning machine will sound that way at its best. Clean only when needed, it is as the man says: 'don't fix it if it's not broken'. Sam

[pivot]

......but I'm certain that a good new record that is not treated with any cleaning machine will sound that way at its best....

How are you "certain" if you have not listened before and after?

Yes, I have heard new records and records that "looked" clean sound better after a cleaning.

The stylus lasts longer playing a clean record. Clean records wear less. The only way one KNOWS a record is clean is if one cleans it. Proper wet cleaning does no damage. I have never heard an LP sound worse after correct cleaning.

...and in the late 1970s I worked in a shop that had a Keith Monks machine too.

[backinblack]

I'm sort of with weegee on this one. Although I have a cleaning system, cleaning records is a bit of a pain for me. I don't get too picky about about a little click here and there. If it's really dirty, I don't buy it. If it's new...well, I haven't come across too many new pressing that I thought could use a good cleaning. Yeah, you could say, "well how do I know it won't sound better if I don't clean it?" But whatever, there is such thing as good enough....for me.

[sjam]

Hi,

How are you "certain" if you have not listened before and after?

Because I did. Many times I've experimented with brand new records because I wanted the best reproduction possible.

Yes, I have heard new records and records that "looked" clean sound better after a cleaning.

I'm stating that records that sound good not need to be cleaned. I'm not worried how records look as long as they sound good.

Proper wet cleaning does no damage. I have never heard an LP sound worse after correct cleaning.

Yes, me neither after correct cleaning. But the trouble is that so many little things can go wrong in the process. I've cleaned thousands of albums and for at least 90% successful and I find the risk of damaging them during cleaning, only acceptable when they already sound bad. So my advice is to ONLY wet clean a NEW record when it sounds bad. I'm not against wet cleaning ( I thought that was clear)
I wet clean dirty and bad sounding second hand records or new ones that can't be returned to the seller or where one can't find a better copy off. You, off course, may do what you like. Sam

[pivot]

.....me neither after correct cleaning. But the trouble is that so many little things can go wrong in the process. I've cleaned thousands of albums and for at least 90% successful and I find the risk of damaging them during cleaning, only acceptable when they already sound bad....

Not to be flip, and as you say "do what you want", but you are suggesting that your risk of damage to a record is as high as one out of ten when you clean.

Frankly I have not damaged a record while cleaning in years (decades??). IF you truly even come close to a 10 percent damage rate you should reexamine your cleaning proceedure. Something is wrong.

I have damaged more discs by simply fumble-finger dropping them in the transfering from jacket to turntable then I have while cleaning.

[sjam]

Hi Pivot,

Not to be flip, and as you say "do what you want", but you are suggesting that your risk of damage to a record is as high as one out of ten when you clean.

I was not very accurate in my answer, but this is what I meant to say: Only in 90% of cleaning a record I was successful in making it sound better or acceptable. The ten percent that did not benefit from cleaning were mostly to far gone (mostly scratched) to be saved. By cleaning new albums that sound good, you introduce a risk of damaging them (I really don't know how big this risk is, probably very small), weather you drop them on the floor in handling them, or the record being damaged by contaminated fluid or worn out brushes or any other defective parts on the RCM machine. The amount of that damage done is very limited. However to get back to the original question if one should clean new virgin records my answer is: No, not when it sounds good. It's a waist of time and money to clean something that does not need cleaning.

I did a lot of RCM cleaning in the old days, but now I take them, when needed, to a specialized address where they do the cleaning for me. This is not because I don't 'believe' in wet cleaning, as it is the best way to improve the quality of dirty records. I just do not consider it a fun job to do and rather then clean, listen to records.

To fight the dust when playing records, I use a Watson dust bug and before that I give them a few rounds cleaning with a dry Tonar brush.

Sam

[triphop]

I second the wording of backinblack. I add that I wonder if in theory the cleaning is better as it would clear any unknown foreign elements (or eek- if a shop sold something as new but gave it a spin and resealed it!!), however in practice it may be different: a novice washer (or at least unperfected system) may contribute to a slightly worsened condition.

[triphop]

So I'm conducting an experiment and may give samples of the results later. I'm taking a still sealed record I have and going through this process:

TEST SUBJECT:
Ben Vereen - Here I Am (1982) [Virgin copy of record still sealed]

For each playback, my stylus gets a Magic Erase dab... all recording captured with Adobe Audition 3 at 96000 Stereo 32bit float using ASIO4all drivers at identical recording levels.

Side 1: Virgin Record- Your basic drop and play. I opened the record and am recording it dry. (NO PRE-CLEANING OF ANY KIND ie sink, static brush, nothing)

Side 2: Virgin Record- I'm playing side 2 ALSO WITH NO PRECLEANING. The only difference here is that I am "wet playing" it by my usual playback of records method... I take a microfibre cloth and, while spinning, dampen the grooves with 90% isoprop, then using the other end of the cloth, wipe down with disilled water. I make sure the whole surface (save the label that is), is very wet, but not spitting water onto the turntable from centrifugal force.

Tomorrow, AFTER I've given the record grooves 24 hours to "heal", I will do my sink washing regimen, and then repeat the steps, and provide samples of what I get. I know this experiment would only suggest very approximate results vs EXACT, but I think the experiment would be a useful guide. If anyone can provide reason to switch tomorrow's experiment (that is, wet play Side A vs B for some supported reason), please let me know.

Already from the monitor I am hearing pop and crackle and can visually see paper sleeve artfacts on both sides. This created surface noise on my Side A dry play. It was greatly reduced but still audible on Side B when wet played...

Plus, just yesterday I picked up VERY dirty but unscratched 80'd pop records from a local shop and hand washed them and wet played them. There was virtual silence in the lead in grooves and in between songs; you can guess that the ssongs themselves were flawless. A 1940's jazz record had SLIGHT surface noise when given the same treatment, but I'll see how it sounds after a woodglue "facial"...

So I'll keep you posted, but already it seems like a proper clean is best for ALL records.

[Qwin]

I believe the pressing tool can periodically be sprayed with mold release agent.
I purchased an 180g "audiophile" copy of Tubular Bells. The first few times it was played the needle dragged something out of the grooves which turned into whitish powder. I am presuming this copy had been pressed just after the release agent was used. It sounded a lot better after a clean.

[Logan]

I believe the pressing tool can periodically be sprayed with mold release agent.

This is an urban myth. Anyone who has watched a pressing plant in operation and has spoken to the machine operators would know this.

[Qwin]

Logan - They were certainly spraying with something in the documentary on UK TV this year. Went through the whole process, from recording to printing the sleeve, but must admit they did not mention what was being sprayed on the presstool. By the vapour emitting, it was more than an air line being used. My background is injection moulding so have no personal experiance, only going off what I was watching.

[Qwin]

Just watched a couple of clips on YouTube and there was nothing being sprayed on the tool between pressings. Don't know what was going on in the documentary but would appear to be out of step with the other sources, so I stand corrected.
The YouTube clips are very informative if anyone is interested in how a record is made.