Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

[JaS]

The comment 'the two can effectively fuse' implies that he's talking about records being in contact with the sleeve. However, an 800g PVC sleeve is an outer sleeve, unless he is talking about storing picture discs, which sound terrible anyway? I also can't find any evidence of his claim that the BBC library has suffered from using these sleeves

I can't help thinking that the theory that PVC sleeves cause damage originates from this document, which is clearly talking about inner sleeves (ie contact damage):

The Care and Handling of Recorded Sound Materials By Gilles St-Laurent
National Library Of Canada January 1996

Grooved discs
Do not use paper or cardboard inner sleeves and do not store records without inner sleeves.

Use soft polyethylene inner sleeves. Do not use record sleeves made of PVC.

Remove grooved discs from the jacket (with the inner sleeve) by bowing the jacket open by holding it against the body and applying a slight pressure with a hand. Pull the disc out by holding a corner of the inner sleeve. Avoid pressing down onto the disc with the fingers as any dust caught between the sleeve and the disc will be pressed into the grooves.

Remove grooved discs from the inner sleeve by bowing the inner sleeve and letting it slip gradually into an open hand so that the edge falls on the inside of the thumb knuckle. The middle finger should reach for the centre label. Never reach into the sleeve.

To hold a disc, place the thumb on the edge of the disc, and the rest of the fingers of the same hand on the centre label for balance. Use both hands on the edge to place disc on turntable.

The problems others have reported in this thread all seem to point to problems with humidity/heat during storage (not that his makes it any less serious)? Bob Stanely (who he?) doesn't even claim to have suffered from the problem himself, just that 'some people swear' that they do and he 'isn't risking it'.

Regards,
JaS

[Superbarands]

I also can't find any evidence of his claim that the BBC library has suffered from using these sleeves

Regards,
JaS

I know,..I did some reserach to and found nothing on this....

[Ldg]

I wonder if the reason the records can't be cleaned and recovered is that the cause is something actually removed from the vinyl ? The obvious one being volatile plasticisers.

Half a stupid theory is that pvc sleeves somehow have an affinity for plasticisers. So set up a concentration gradient, and diffusion pressure to leach them out of the record vinyl. It's the only thing I can think of that might actually work through polythene liners, and laminated covers. Sort of fits with elevated temperature as an accelerant. But I still find it incredible.

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

[awty]

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

Wet play makes little difference. What ever the chemical reaction is, it has etched into the vinyl. I have bought second hand records that have a rash from the inner sleeve and as mentioned it will clean off.
Maybe you can replicate whats happening in a controlled environment?....if you can be bothered.
The moral of the story is its not a good idea to store your records for a long period of time in a hot confined space with plastic covers on.

[Hanuman]

Here's a quick poll of my older collection:

Records in PVC sleeve:

From 56 examples:

Both Sides Affected: 21 (37.5%)
One Side Affected: 8 (14.3%)
Neither Side affected: 27 (48.2%)


Records Not in any sleeve:

From 28 examples:


Both Sides Affected: 1 (3.6%)
One Side Affected: 5 (17.8%)
Neither Side affected: 22 (78.6%)


And here's an interesting exhibit:





The effect that I'm trying to show is not easy to photograph but it should be discernible that the bubbling of this record sleeve has a different pattern at the label area of the record. I have a couple of others wherein the label area is flat, surrounded by the bubbling. I should point out that a minority of sleeves in the collection show this type of effect to any degree. Oddly enough the record inside is one of the unaffected ones but another Oldfield disc close by was badly affected on one side only. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that this sleeve has been affected by an adjacent record. This evidence proves, though, that there is some interaction possible and in fact happening between the vinyl of the records and the plastic sleeves.

[Rustyhook]

I wonder if the reason the records can't be cleaned and recovered is that the cause is something actually removed from the vinyl ? The obvious one being volatile plasticisers.

Half a stupid theory is that pvc sleeves somehow have an affinity for plasticisers. So set up a concentration gradient, and diffusion pressure to leach them out of the record vinyl. It's the only thing I can think of that might actually work through polythene liners, and laminated covers. Sort of fits with elevated temperature as an accelerant. But I still find it incredible.

Do records with surface noise caused this way play OK wet, perchance ?

If it's 'something removed', there's always the prospect of putting it back, I suppose.......first one has to work out what exactly is happening ?!

It does indeed look like something has been removed, which is why I asked earlier if awty and Hanuman would agree that the surface of the record now feels different.
To me it is slightly smoother.
Another way to describe how the surface looks. Have you ever had your plastic trim on your car fade? It's a bit like that.
Also the background noise from my listening can either be consistent or a slurping noise.
A curious thing did happen with one of my 45's. In one, between the record and the paper cover was a small advertising insert about 3 x 4 inches. The area this covered on the vinyl was untouched, with the rest of the surface dull.

[Hanuman]

It does indeed look like something has been removed, which is why I asked earlier if awty and Hanuman would agree that the surface of the record now feels different.
To me it is slightly smoother.
Another way to describe how the surface looks. Have you ever had your plastic trim on your car fade? It's a bit like that.
Also the background noise from my listening can either be consistent or a slurping noise.
A curious thing did happen with one of my 45's. In one, between the record and the paper cover was a small advertising insert about 3 x 4 inches. The area this covered on the vinyl was untouched, with the rest of the surface dull.

I had the similar case of a clearly visible silhouette of the cover artwork on the record surface.

I'm not aware of any difference in surface texture between bad and good.

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

Bob Stanley (who he?)

He's one of the two blokes in St Etienne and an ex-NME journalist. Good guy.



JT

[Superbarands]

Interesting,...looks like the MODS changed the title of my thread. Was it too harsh?????

[JaS]

Interesting,...looks like the MODS changed the title of my thread. Was it too harsh?????

Too much like a tabloid headline

Regards,
JaS

[Superbarands]

You mean good Investigative journalism JaS!!!!!

[Ldg]

Coincidentally I just recently bought a copy of Disreali Gears. It's a UK 1st edition mono on Reaction, and looks like it has lived in a PVC sleeve for decades. I bought it for a good price, because it was described as 'poor', having severe and uncleanable crackle/pop. Such things often respond well to playing wet, and in this case it plays very well when wet, so I was quite happy. Very good the mono mix is too, BTW.

I saw Hanuman's pic of his PVC sleeve that showed wrinkling only over the exposed vinyl part. And I just realised, exactly the same thing was present on the pvc sleeve which was covering my copy of Disreali Gears. Here's photos :




You can clearly see the PVC sleeve has changed only where there is record vinyl next to it. Shape of the label, and circle of the disc are clearly visible. This appears to be the same phenomenum as Hanuman noted.

In the case of Disreali Gears, only the front of the LP cover is laminated. But, whatever it is apparently has penetrated the inner sleeve and laminate. There's no real difference between front and back pvc sleeve wrinkling. There is severe crackle/pop noise, but no notable disclolouration or marking of the LP, perhaps a slight dulling. But there is good news, it plays near silently, and without any sign of damage, when wet playing.

That the PVC sleeve has altered in that pattern, suggests some interaction with the vinyl, and seems to support the idea that something might leach from the vinyl. I prefer the idea that plasticiser is being removed from the vinyl, because in the case of Disreali Gears it plays fine when wet. I believe this generally indicates a vinyl surface friction issue, rather than physical peaks and pit groove damage, BTW. So I hope it might be reversible.

Lastly, thanks for posting those stats, Hanuman. Along with the photo, and this apparent confirmation, it's pretty clearly a real phenomenum.

In the case I have purchased above, it was 'fixed' by playing wet. But not permanently, it reverts to severe crackle/pop when dry. Perhaps there is some permanent restoration for records damaged this way, if one can work out what is going on, and what to apply to the vinyl record to restore it. Aside, I would love to make permanent the improvement from playing wet on many records.

[pivot]

Well - really looks like something is going on here.

Talk about stuff I never thought I had to worry about. The outer jacket sleeve never concerned me in the past.

So PVC is an issue. How about POLYETHYLENE and POLYPROPYLENE? I assume that high density, HDPE, is not being used in the outer jacket covers. I see that the covers sold by Bags Unlimited as "poly" are either polyethylene or polyproplene.

http://www.bagsunlimited.com/c-90-poly-sleeves.aspx

...and Sleeve City are polypro too:

http://www.sleevetown.com/lp-sleeves-outer.shtml

[davidsss]

Hmm, I have had some records in these sleeves for years. I'll have to see if any of mine have an issue. Weather is not hot so often here but it does get over 40. The room probably stays below 30 for most of the time although no air con.

DS