the home of the turntable

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl - Merged Thread

how clean is your house

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby goneawol » 23 Jan 2012 19:27

Hanuman wrote: I have dozens of my older records that were transported to here (Bangkok) from Melbourne that exhibit the exact symptoms described - a dulling of the surface and noisy playback. Most of them haven't been played since transportation and they were never that way in Australia. The vast majority of that older collection have the PVC outer covers that were very typical of Aussie record packaging.


Hi Hanuman, very interesting. All records were stored. Most in pvc sleeves. Most show the problem. But, that's not quite enough to say the cause is related to pvc sleeves. Only if the set of records that show the problem is the same as those stored in pvc sleeves, and vica versa, can that be said. And then, only if there's enough records in each set to be valid.

Hanuman, about how many records in each set ? PVC/problem, PVC/no problem, no PVC/problem, no pvc/no problem ?

Thx
goneawol
member
 
Posts: 4780
Images: 389
Joined: 25 Jun 2009 14:12

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Rustyhook » 23 Jan 2012 21:09

With my 45's they were stored in cardboard boxes each holding around 100 discs.
Probably had around 300 PVC outer sleeves with the rest in poly outer sleeves out of a total of 1500 45's.
So Pvc sleeved records were scattered randomly throughout collection.
I put my favourite records in the PVC sleeves as at the time I thought this was better protection for the cover.
Only records affected were those in PVC sleeves, plus any in a poly sleeve either directly in front or behind a record in a PVC sleeve.
So the 45 in a poly sleeve in front of a PVC sleeve had it's b-side damaged and a record in poly sleeve directly behind a PVC sleeve had it's a-side damaged.
Rustyhook
junior member
junior member
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 22 Jan 2012 03:51

Australia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby goneawol » 23 Jan 2012 23:30

Rustyhook wrote:Only records affected were those in PVC sleeves, plus any in a poly sleeve either directly in front or behind a record in a PVC sleeve.
So the 45 in a poly sleeve in front of a PVC sleeve had it's b-side damaged and a record in poly sleeve directly behind a PVC sleeve had it's a-side damaged.

So the effect went through a poly sleeve.........? That's pretty odd. Polythene's not exactly permeable. But then again, presumably the effect must be implied to go through the inner liner and (sometimes) laminated cover too. How strange.
goneawol
member
 
Posts: 4780
Images: 389
Joined: 25 Jun 2009 14:12

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby awty » 24 Jan 2012 00:04

Its bloody upsetting, cause you buy these records when your younger and have to store them away for lack of space with a family and when you get them out again their ruined.
Sorry to hear some of yours went the same way Rustyhook.
Mine were stored in a wooden entertainment cabinet with sliding doors. It often had a TV on it or other electronic stuff and summers can get hot (30-35 C). So heat was the number one contributing factor. Some of the inner sleeves affected the vinyl as well, it looks like a rash (see photo). I dont know what the different materials in the sleeves were, but even paper inner sleeved albums were damaged and others were fine. I haven't counted them, but would probably affect about 1/3-1/2 of my collection (about 60" of records including packaging not including 45's) to some degree.

Image
User avatar
awty
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 519
Images: 2
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 00:17
Location: Brisbane, Austalia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby awty » 24 Jan 2012 00:26

Just to clarify that there is 2 chemical reactions taking place.
I have "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" where only side one of the 2 album set was affected. So looks like a product of the outer sleeve.
On my "Buddha and the Chocolate Box" which has 3 sleeves to get through to vinyl has the rash caused by the inner sleeve.

Nothing I have tried will remove the rash and stop the hiss.

So if you live in a cool climate you probably haven't got much to worry about, But if your somewhere where room temperature can get past 30c then you should take heed.
User avatar
awty
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 519
Images: 2
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 00:17
Location: Brisbane, Austalia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby ripblade » 24 Jan 2012 00:30

awty wrote:Its bloody upsetting, cause you buy these records when your younger and have to store them away for lack of space with a family and when you get them out again their ruined.
Sorry to hear some of yours went the same way Rustyhook.
Mine were stored in a wooden entertainment cabinet with sliding doors. It often had a TV on it or other electronic stuff and summers can get hot (30-35 C). So heat was the number one contributing factor. Some of the inner sleeves affected the vinyl as well, it looks like a rash (see photo). I dont know what the different materials in the sleeves were, but even paper inner sleeved albums were damaged and others were fine. I haven't counted them, but would probably affect about 1/3-1/2 of my collection (about 60" of records including packaging not including 45's) to some degree.
I always assumed vinyl was for keeps. Hearing of damage caused by some myserious chemical reaction is distressing. In your case awty, the "rash" in your photo resembles what I've seen on records stored in LDPE...the soft, largely clear plastic commonly used in older premium albums. This is a film and will wash off with water and soap.

Couldn't have happened to a better album.

In other cases I'm inclined to think environmental factors are at play...salt air, humidity (mold), etc. Especially so with albums stored in cardboard sleeves (virtually all of them!)
How boring it would be, this endeavor
If all we heard was "perfect sound forever"
ripblade
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 482
Images: 0
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 19:51
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby awty » 24 Jan 2012 02:00

No nothing will remove it, even strong solvents have no affect. The Elton John and Cat Stevens albums haven't been played since I bought them over 25 years ago.

The really odd thing most of the records weren't affected. I'm not sure why as they were side by side with others that were.......and all the LP's had plastic outer sleeves.

I've just check my singles, which were stored separately and only the ones in the thick plastic covers were affected. So I guess its mostly to do with the outer cover and heat.
User avatar
awty
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 519
Images: 2
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 00:17
Location: Brisbane, Austalia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby davidsss » 24 Jan 2012 02:27

I haven't had PVC covers cause this problem on any of my records. My records have moved house with me until I bought a house nearly 20 years ago and have been in places where it can get hot although less humidity in Victoria. PVC outers can cause problems when they heat up and can stick to your record covers, I have had that happen.

In terms of cleaning I figure it is worth trying just about anything to clean a record which is stuffed unless cleaned. Have you tried warm water with one third vinegar? That doesn't harm the records anyway. How about glue or record re-virginiser? If none of that works try some solvents but ask here first to see if anyone has tried before and damaged their records.

DS
Micro Seiki BL51 TT, Stax UA7 Tonearm, RCM Sensor Prelude Phono Stage, Dynavector XX-2 MkII Cart, Rotel RCD865BX Cd Player, Melody I34R amp and Osborn Epitome Speakers.
User avatar
davidsss
long player
long player
contributor
 
Posts: 2011
Images: 64
Joined: 02 Mar 2006 06:08
Location: Melbourne Australia

Australia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Hanuman » 24 Jan 2012 02:43

ld wrote:Hi Hanuman, very interesting. All records were stored. Most in pvc sleeves. Most show the problem. But, that's not quite enough to say the cause is related to pvc sleeves. Only if the set of records that show the problem is the same as those stored in pvc sleeves, and vica versa, can that be said. And then, only if there's enough records in each set to be valid.

Hanuman, about how many records in each set ? PVC/problem, PVC/no problem, no PVC/problem, no pvc/no problem ?

Thx

It's a bit like establishing the causal relationship between tobacco and cancer - not every smoker gets lung cancer. That old collection has been banished to a store-room outside but I had so many of these PVC covers that every record must have been in one or between two such packaged records. I've borrowed records from a couple of friends over the years (in both cases stored for 25+ years here in Thailand) and never saw the syndrome in either case. If I remember correctly neither set's records came packaged in any kind of plastic sleeve - I'm confident that's the case for one of those collections.
Hanuman
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 864
Images: 67
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 07:59
Location: Bangkok

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby awty » 24 Jan 2012 03:51

davidsss wrote:I haven't had PVC covers cause this problem on any of my records. My records have moved house with me until I bought a house nearly 20 years ago and have been in places where it can get hot although less humidity in Victoria. PVC outers can cause problems when they heat up and can stick to your record covers, I have had that happen.

In terms of cleaning I figure it is worth trying just about anything to clean a record which is stuffed unless cleaned. Have you tried warm water with one third vinegar? That doesn't harm the records anyway. How about glue or record re-virginiser? If none of that works try some solvents but ask here first to see if anyone has tried before and damaged their records.

DS


Nothing will remove it, its etched into the vinyl. I've tried for example straight Isopropyl Alcohol (99.8%), PVA glue (tried pvc glue but that just wrecked it), every cleaning product under the sink, hot water as well as warm water......all has 0 affect and the records hiss.
The plastic has never stuck to any thing or has there been any moisture involved.
So if it hasnt happened to you good, but keep an eye out and check occasionally, maybe if I waited longer more would have been damaged.
Here is a photo of another affect, this had a paper inner sleeve. (Please note the choice of records I put up is purely random and doesn't reflect my taste in music, sometimes I wonder WTF I bought that. :roll: )

Image
User avatar
awty
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 519
Images: 2
Joined: 21 Aug 2011 00:17
Location: Brisbane, Austalia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Rustyhook » 24 Jan 2012 06:52

awty is correct, nothing will clean these records. You can only throw them away.
It's as if the life has been drained from the vinyl.
A chemical reaction has happened.
It's not mould, it's not worn grooves or anything else you can think of that usually happens to vinyl.
Hanuman and awty, would you agree that the vinyl now feels different compared to a normal record?
Rustyhook
junior member
junior member
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 22 Jan 2012 03:51

Australia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Rustyhook » 24 Jan 2012 07:52

Let me throw a spanner in the works.
Reading awty's posts, he has a lot of LP's that have been affected as well as some 45's.
Hanuman I assume has damaged LP'S also.
I also had LP's in PVC outer sleeves but none of these were affected unless it was a twelve inch single or picture disc that was sold in a clear PVC outer sleeve that had direct contact with the surface of the vinyl, eg various Primitives coloured vinyl 12" which some of you might own.
My LP's were stored on shelves but in the same room as the 45's.
My locality is about 1200 km's north of awty where there is even more heat and humidity.
You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?
Rustyhook
junior member
junior member
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 22 Jan 2012 03:51

Australia

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Superbarands » 24 Jan 2012 09:20

Rustyhook wrote:You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?


Not at all Rusty. It's very mild in London. No Heat issues. Humid, maybe, depending on the house or apartment, room you store your records. I don't think humidity would cause a chemical reaction with a PVC outer sleeve,...more likely to me extreme heat that would do this,...which is what Bob Stanely is refering to...

:?
User avatar
Superbarands
member
member
 
Posts: 115
Images: 1
Joined: 23 Apr 2009 16:50
Location: London

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Superbarands » 24 Jan 2012 10:26

Superbarands wrote:
Rustyhook wrote:You could say that awty, Hanuman and myself all live in a similar climate but Bob Stanley, whose article prompted this discussion, doesn't.
Does London get hot and humid?


Yes,.. Rusty. It's very mild in London. No Heat issues. Humid, maybe, depending on the house or apartment, room you store your records. Tne BBC Masters must have been stored around London to. I don't think humidity would cause a chemical reaction with a PVC outer sleeve,...more likely to me extreme heat that would do this,...which is what Bob Stanely is refering to...

:?
User avatar
Superbarands
member
member
 
Posts: 115
Images: 1
Joined: 23 Apr 2009 16:50
Location: London

Can PVC record sleeves damage vinyl?

Postby Superbarands » 24 Jan 2012 10:32

Superbarands wrote:Image


Again,...my big QUESTION MARK on this Times article is wether the author is referring to INNER or OUTER sleeves being the cause of "Misting".

It's not very clear at all but the more I read it the more I think he is actually talking about "Inner" sleeves causing damage...

Any thoughts?

:?
User avatar
Superbarands
member
member
 
Posts: 115
Images: 1
Joined: 23 Apr 2009 16:50
Location: London

PreviousNext

Return to Record Cleaning and Storage


Design and Content © Vinyl Engine 2002-2014

faq | site policy | advertising