What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

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spikey_w
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by spikey_w » 24 Nov 2019 23:32

vince1 wrote:
24 Nov 2019 21:45
I would try that Bac50 product. Sounds promising.
Thank you, I'll order some to try out. One more thing, is 2ml of BAC50 to make 5L solution sufficient quantity?

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by countingteeth » 25 Nov 2019 05:39

spikey_w wrote:
24 Nov 2019 23:32
vince1 wrote:
24 Nov 2019 21:45
I would try that Bac50 product. Sounds promising.
Thank you, I'll order some to try out. One more thing, is 2ml of BAC50 to make 5L solution sufficient quantity?
I use a combination of NP-9 (8ml), NP-6 (4ml) and BAC50(2ml) dissolved in 500ml of 99% ISO, that is then added to 4.5L RO water. This is used on both the vacuum and Ultrasonic, although Vince recommends a stronger solution for vacuum, I've found this to be perfectly adequate (It foams readily and there is no discernible residue ie nothing collecting on the stylus and playing 10 or so sides [*] ). These chemicals are readily available here and are cheap....If I remember correctly a 1L bottle of each is about 3 Quid or 6 US. (Its been a while so I'm not sure if prices have gone up)

I suppose its time to talk about the environment. given these chemicals are all banned in the EU.

[1] I have a filtration system for the ultrasonic and I store the fluid for re-use.
[2] Fluid from the Vac can be collected and placed in direct sunlight (or UV lamp) preferably with an aquarium pump and diffuser running ...this breaks down the chemicals..however, most will just be stuck in the machine's reservoir after drying. When cleaning the reservoir, collect the fluid and treat it as described above.

The short of it is you can have minimal impact with a little common sense.

[*] Microfibre shedding does occur, particularly on cheaper ones. If you are going to dry using microfibre cloth, you need to keep a close eye on the stylus. If you start seeing an accumulation of debris, you can check to see if its waxy or stringy. If its waxy white, its to much cleaning solution, if its stringy, change the microfibre cloth. It very simple to test if its shedding. Clean a batch of records and dry using a Vac, if there is no residue on the stylis, you have a good cleaning solution, if not, reduce concentrations until there is no residue . Use the same solution and dry using the microfibre, if you start accumulating debris, the microfibre is shedding. If you start getting a black tar like substance, then clean the record with 50/50 ISO and RO using a cotton pad from yours or your partners make up draw. My theory is its tar from heavy smokers...but given the s**t people used in the past it could be anything....baby oil...diesel ...wd40...

georgesgiralt
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by georgesgiralt » 26 Nov 2019 10:03

vince1 wrote:
24 Nov 2019 14:07
A few comments:

When searching for a quat to add to your cleaning solution, concentrated cleaners are a good source, just be sure they contain mostly quat and not other ingredients (the aforementioned veterinary product contains PHMB, which is a great disinfectant but is not a quat). More and more of these solutions are coming on the market as bleach substitutes so they should be available.
I only put forward Hepastat as it met these criteria and was easy to obtain by users in my area. It is not the only, nor necessarily the best (I use pure quats in my research).
Another source is cosmetic supply companies, where pure quats like cetrimonium chloride are sold for DIY hair conditioners and the like.
In Europe, you may have a hard time finding Triton X-100 in the future. It is set to be banned next year due to its effect on the environment. Stock up now or switch to another non-ionic detergent like Tergitol 15-S-7 or Pareth-7.
Hello Vince,
Would you please tell me if Tegitol alone in distilled water is sufficient or if I need to add one of the quats you listed ?
Also, I replaced Triton X-100 because of environmental concern (I guess I'm not the only one in Europe ;-) )by Tween 20;
What would be a polysorbate suitable replacement ?
Thanks a lot for your answer.

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 26 Nov 2019 15:43

Hey George, the non-ionic detergent alone is fine. Quats are only suggested if you are having issues with static or mold contamination. For non-ionics, I much prefer Tergitols over Tweens because stock solutions of polysorbates degrade more easily and are rather weak in detergency.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Dimal » 28 Nov 2019 12:23

How about this product Vince?
https://www.bunnings.com.au/hy-clor-1l- ... e_p3090322
We don't seem to have access to any of the recommendations that have been made so far (in Australia) and I was hoping the Vet product was a winner... :|

Mal.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 28 Nov 2019 13:55

Hi Mal. It looks like that is a 40% BAC solution which should be good and similar to the Bac50. Once you get over 50% BAC solutions, they contain additives to keep the surfactant from gelling up, so this 40% should be fairly pure (at least they don't list anything else in their literature). Let us know how it works out!

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Dimal » 02 Dec 2019 11:45

Ah thanks for that Vince, much appreciated mate... 8-)
Will come back with some feedback on results. ;-)

Thanks again,
Mal.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by georgesgiralt » 02 Dec 2019 14:25

vince1 wrote:
26 Nov 2019 15:43
Hey George, the non-ionic detergent alone is fine. Quats are only suggested if you are having issues with static or mold contamination. For non-ionics, I much prefer Tergitols over Tweens because stock solutions of polysorbates degrade more easily and are rather weak in detergency.
Thank you Vince,
I will try to use the Tween because I've got a litre of it...
Have a nice day.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by laffs4sale » 12 Dec 2019 22:40

I'm looking to add Hepastat 256 in the London Jazz Collector formula (80% distilled water/20% iso alcohol/.5% Ilford Ilfotol as a wetting agent). By adding .5% Hep 256, the surfactant concentration in the formula would be 1% with rounding. Is that too much?

Thanks for the advice.

Tombo62
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Tombo62 » 12 Dec 2019 23:10

I believe that Vince recommended using from .01% up to .04% hepastat 256 to achieve the desired anti-static effect. I use .04% with very good results, which is .4ml per litter. So, .5% would seem a bit much.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 12 Dec 2019 23:50

Hepastat 256 is 21.7% quat, so I am assuming your 0.5% Hepastat addition results in about 0.11% quat. That's a little strong, but not too bad. I like to do dilutions of 1:500 to 1:2000 of the Hepastat on records depending on the protocol.

Note this is less than the manufacturer recommends for cleaning general surfaces of 1/2 ounce/gal, which is a 1:256 dilution (hence the "256" in the name).

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Tombo62 » 13 Dec 2019 02:30

I apparently misunderstood an earlier post by Vince where he wrote:

"A cleaning mix that is about 22% of these is Hepastat256, and can be found at Quill, Amazon, or Staples (http://www.coastwidelabs.com/products/p ... eb4251.pdf). In practice, we use it at 1:500 to 1:2000 dilution (0.01 to 0.04% quat)."

I have now realised that the 0.01 to 0.04% does not refer to the percentage of Hepastat used, but rather to the total concentration of quat in the formula. A 1:500 to 1:2000 dilution would equate to using 0.2 to 0.05% of Hepastat in the cleaning formula.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 13 Dec 2019 03:22

Sorry, the confusion is on me....I suggest different concentrations for different applications. Ultrasonic cleaners require minimum amounts, hand-cleaning the most, and vacuum-based machines in the middle. On top of this, heavily soiled records require more surfactant than new records, and previously cleaned records require less than thrift store finds. There is quite a range, but as long as you rinse well, it isn't that critical. Even at full working strength (1:256 dilution) no harm is done. I suggest you experiment using your specific protocol, and settle on the least amount that you find effective.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by laffs4sale » 13 Dec 2019 09:04

Thanks, Vince. I'm now wondering though if Ilford Ilfotol already leaves the records anti-static, making the Hep unnecessary. In its marketing copy for Ilfotol, Ilford says it "can be used to clean ... plastic lens... as an anti-static treatment." I thought Ilford was just non-ionic, so it won't add a charge either way, but actually neutralizing the static charge on records would require a cationic (positively charged) surfactant because records are negatively charged. I could try it both ways and find out, but that would be an expensive experiment.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by laffs4sale » 13 Dec 2019 09:30

vince1 wrote:
12 Dec 2019 23:50
Hepastat 256 is 21.7% quat, so I am assuming your 0.5% Hepastat addition results in about 0.11% quat. That's a little strong, but not too bad. I like to do dilutions of 1:500 to 1:2000 of the Hepastat on records depending on the protocol.

Note this is less than the manufacturer recommends for cleaning general surfaces of 1/2 ounce/gal, which is a 1:256 dilution (hence the "256" in the name).
According to his article, Reg Williamson wanted to leave "an inert film about a molecule thick" of quat molecules on the record to keep it anti-static, which I assume explains the slightly higher than manufacturer recommended dilution (1:200 vs. 1:256). He wasn't using a record cleaning machine either, but applying it manually and not vacuuming off. (He wanted to clean any residual dirt with a conical stylus, but leave the quat.)