What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

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georgesgiralt
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What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by georgesgiralt » 01 Jul 2019 08:55

Hello,
I've devised a device to ultra sonic clean my records.
I've found IPA and Tween 20 (polysorbate ) to replace the Triton X100. But I can't find any Hepastat 256 quat cleaner in Europe. And people selling it in the USA are not willing to sell in Europe.
So what are you using in Great Britain and elsewhere in Europe to replace it ?
Thanks a lot in advance for your help !

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 02 Jul 2019 11:53

Try Selgiene

georgesgiralt
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by georgesgiralt » 06 Jul 2019 07:59

Thank you very much, Sir !

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 08 Jul 2019 12:03

No Problem. There are other options as well: Last time I met with folks in the field in Europe, they were using Cetrimide (n-cetyl pyridinium chloride). It isn't used much in the US, but it's an interesting quat, maybe you can find it locally. It is recommended at the International Association of Sound and Audiovisual Archives (https://www.iasa-web.org/tc04/microgroo ... estoration)

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Canada ?

Post by Fleur1 » 28 Jul 2019 19:49

Hello Vince, Im a new subscriber to this room but saw your Triton100 recipe for a couple of years back. Around that time I was able to get my hands on some 100% stock Triton 100 but then got stuck on sourcing the quarternary ammonium. Not easy with this type of stuff here in Canada. Recently I've acquired some vinyl that's in desperate need of a good cleaning and want to give this Triton recipe another go.
I work in a medical setting and had a revalation! I realized I can access a surface cleaner/disinfectant that uses Quart Ammo, claims to be non corrosive and non staining (among other things). Only thing is, I have no understanding of the amount to use based on their ingredient percentages, in other words I really cant do the math :(
Product is called DisCide Ultra Disinfecting Spray and is a dual chain quaternary ammonium/high level alcohol solution.

Ingredients as listed on SDS:
n-alkyl (60% C14, 30% C16, 5% C12, 5% C18) dimenthyl benzyl ammonium chloride ….0.12%
n-alkyl (68% C12,2% C14) dimethyl ethyl benzyl ammonium chloride …………………..………..0.12%
Isopropyl alcohol...………………………………………………………………………………………………….…………...63.25%
Other ingredients (non-disclosed /protected by copyright) ……………..…….………………………...36.51%


1) Does this product look as tho it would be suitable as a replacement for the Hepastat 256 that I can not get here?
2) Are you able to help me out with the math? (quantities of dH2O / IPA / Triton / DisCide Ultra )
3) What would I be risking if I didn't use the QA ? I'm starting to think I ought to forget this ingredient and just move forward, its now been 1 or 2 years !

Any help you can offer would be hugely appreciated, this project has been a long time in the making and I finally feel as tho I'm making some headway. Hope to keep the momentum going. :)

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 30 Jul 2019 14:52

Hi Fleur. That is a dilute solution of quats, likely because it is a working stock (not a concentrate). So you would do only a 1:10 or 1:20 diltution, but would have to account for the alcohol content. Also, the fact that it doesn't list the other ingredients (about a third of the content) is troublesome since you aren't diluting these unknown agents out that much. You could try it on an old record and see what you get. Or, as you mention, just go without the quats. They are primarily included to combat issues with static, as a lubricant, and as a biocide. Folks have cleaned successfully with just non-ionic detergents like Triton or Tergitol for years.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Fleur1 » 01 Aug 2019 14:56

Thank you Vince for deciphering this for me. I've decided to forgo the quat this go round, just get the vinyl clean and start enjoying the music. I will keep my eyes open for some local 256 options for the next clean up. Thanks again, really appreciate your advice and quick reply. :)

georgesgiralt
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by georgesgiralt » 09 Aug 2019 08:18

Hello Vince,
I can't get my hand on Selgiene. The seller carrying it in Europe refuse to sell to an individual. And those willing to sell to me are unable (or refuse) to get some.
So for now on my shelf I've :
Tween 20 (polysorbate 20)
Enzystel enzymatic cleaner
Isopropilyc Alcool
"Distiled water" (water used for ironing clothes)
And I can borrow some of my wife products like the dish washing product...
I would like to get a recipe for cleaning the pile of records needing it !
Many thanks in advance for your help !
Have a bright day !

spikey_w
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by spikey_w » 20 Nov 2019 01:04

vince1 wrote:
02 Jul 2019 11:53
Try Selgiene
Searching for Selgiene I found many forms https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... e&_sacat=0

Which one?

However I found this quat on ebay which specify CAS 68424-85-1 & CAS 85409-23-0 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GMC-Corsehil ... Sw~AVYrXhN

Please can you advise which one is the most suitable.

Dimal
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by Dimal » 20 Nov 2019 12:11

We can get this one here in Oz, which appears to have right components... :-)
https://www.thevetshed.com.au/buy/f10-s ... ant/F10200

Mal.

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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by countingteeth » 23 Nov 2019 06:57

spikey_w wrote:
20 Nov 2019 01:04
vince1 wrote:
02 Jul 2019 11:53
Try Selgiene
Searching for Selgiene I found many forms https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from ... e&_sacat=0

Which one?

However I found this quat on ebay which specify CAS 68424-85-1 & CAS 85409-23-0 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GMC-Corsehil ... Sw~AVYrXhN

Please can you advise which one is the most suitable.
Hi,

A brief search on the internet...seems quats are readily available in the UK ... They seem a bit pricey compared to SA (eg : we pay about 2.5 quid equivalent for BAC50) and you might get them cheaper if you approach a chemical company directly or shop around. Given you are going to buy a s**t ton vs what you need (2ml per 5L water for BAC50), you might want to look at sharing with other interested parties in the UK..

https://mistralni.co.uk/products/c10-c1 ... hloride-ba
or/and
https://mistralni.co.uk/collections/sur ... m-chloride
and/or
https://mistralni.co.uk/collections/sur ... yl-betaine

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 24 Nov 2019 14:07

A few comments:

When searching for a quat to add to your cleaning solution, concentrated cleaners are a good source, just be sure they contain mostly quat and not other ingredients (the aforementioned veterinary product contains PHMB, which is a great disinfectant but is not a quat). More and more of these solutions are coming on the market as bleach substitutes so they should be available.
I only put forward Hepastat as it met these criteria and was easy to obtain by users in my area. It is not the only, nor necessarily the best (I use pure quats in my research).
Another source is cosmetic supply companies, where pure quats like cetrimonium chloride are sold for DIY hair conditioners and the like.
In Europe, you may have a hard time finding Triton X-100 in the future. It is set to be banned next year due to its effect on the environment. Stock up now or switch to another non-ionic detergent like Tergitol 15-S-7 or Pareth-7.

spikey_w
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by spikey_w » 24 Nov 2019 16:23

countingteeth wrote:
23 Nov 2019 06:57
A brief search on the internet...seems quats are readily available in the UK ... They seem a bit pricey compared to SA (eg : we pay about 2.5 quid equivalent for BAC50) and you might get them cheaper if you approach a chemical company directly or shop around. Given you are going to buy a s**t ton vs what you need (2ml per 5L water for BAC50), you might want to look at sharing with other interested parties in the UK..

https://mistralni.co.uk/products/c10-c1 ... hloride-ba
or/and
https://mistralni.co.uk/collections/sur ... m-chloride
and/or
https://mistralni.co.uk/collections/sur ... yl-betaine
Thanks, never heard of this before and what's great is that there's quite alot of sellers on Ebay to choose from.

spikey_w
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by spikey_w » 24 Nov 2019 16:26

vince1 wrote:
24 Nov 2019 14:07
A few comments:

When searching for a quat to add to your cleaning solution, concentrated cleaners are a good source, just be sure they contain mostly quat and not other ingredients (the aforementioned veterinary product contains PHMB, which is a great disinfectant but is not a quat). More and more of these solutions are coming on the market as bleach substitutes so they should be available.
I only put forward Hepastat as it met these criteria and was easy to obtain by users in my area. It is not the only, nor necessarily the best (I use pure quats in my research).
Another source is cosmetic supply companies, where pure quats like cetrimonium chloride are sold for DIY hair conditioners and the like.
In Europe, you may have a hard time finding Triton X-100 in the future. It is set to be banned next year due to its effect on the environment. Stock up now or switch to another non-ionic detergent like Tergitol 15-S-7 or Pareth-7.
Hi Vince,

Didn't know that Triton will be banned, thanks for the heads up.

I have searched the above examples of quats but unfortunately to no avail in the UK.

Sorry for badgering you as know nothing about chemistry and wanted to be sure if any quats below would be suitable.
Could you confirm whether this quats is suitable on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GMC-Corsehil ... Sw~AVYrXhN It has a CAS 68424-85-1 CAS 85409-23-0.

@countingteeth suggested BAC50 which are readily available in UK. Never heard of it until now and seems to be a 50% concentration, here is a typical MSDS pdf https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0153/ ... M_MSDS.pdf

Thanks.

vince1
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Re: What do you use to replace Hepastat 256 in Europe ?

Post by vince1 » 24 Nov 2019 21:45

I would try that Bac50 product. Sounds promising.

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