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Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby fastdave » 30 May 2012 11:18

Harmonics. Harmonics are what make sound, colour and the universe three dimensional.
Anyone who has ever dealt with the subject of light knows that the instant there is light, there is reflection.
Sound is not so different.
What happens when we digitize a sound, is that we take what should be a smoothly rising and falling sine wave, and divide it into steps - the difference between a rolling hill and steps - literally.
We have made it better and better by putting in more steps(bits), but the are still steps.
Imagine a car travelling up a hill - smooth climb, smooth hill - put in steps, and immediately the ride is dependent on the number of steps.
Now here's the part it may be hard to get your head around.
The reflections from a stepped or digitized sound or wave, must produce very different reflections and harmonics from a smooth sine wave.
The complex sound is then producing thousands of different square waves, altering the whole characteristic of the sound.
Real musical instruments produce sine waves, no matter what the instrument.
Further to that:-
Valves can be likened to listening to sound via a glass tube, and solid state like listening through sand, so why do transistors sound different to valves?
Harmonics.
The last concept is extreme, but quite a good analogy.
Let us make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler - Einstien
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby flavio81 » 30 May 2012 16:35

fastdave wrote:Harmonics. Harmonics are what make sound, colour and the universe three dimensional.
Anyone who has ever dealt with the subject of light knows that the instant there is light, there is reflection.
Sound is not so different.
What happens when we digitize a sound, is that we take what should be a smoothly rising and falling sine wave, and divide it into steps - the difference between a rolling hill and steps - literally.
We have made it better and better by putting in more steps(bits), but the are still steps.
Imagine a car travelling up a hill - smooth climb, smooth hill - put in steps, and immediately the ride is dependent on the number of steps.
Now here's the part it may be hard to get your head around.
The reflections from a stepped or digitized sound or wave, must produce very different reflections and harmonics from a smooth sine wave.
The complex sound is then producing thousands of different square waves, altering the whole characteristic of the sound.
Real musical instruments produce sine waves, no matter what the instrument.
Further to that:-
Valves can be likened to listening to sound via a glass tube, and solid state like listening through sand, so why do transistors sound different to valves?
Harmonics.
The last concept is extreme, but quite a good analogy.
Let us make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler - Einstien


Why don't you post on any of the 1000 already existing topics where "vinyl versus CD" or "analog vs digital" is discussed? No need to open a new topic.

As for your claims above, you should really study in depth about PCM sampling and signal theory, because some of your claims are based on wrong assumptions.
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby fastdave » 30 May 2012 17:44

Wrong, and I posted a new post so that this accurate info would not be missed - What age are you? What is your professional field?
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby LeeS » 30 May 2012 18:04

fastdave wrote:....accurate info....


:lol: :lol: :drunk: :crazy: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby flavio81 » 30 May 2012 20:55

fastdave wrote:Wrong, and I posted a new post so that this accurate info would not be missed - What age are you? What is your professional field?


It is not accurate info, quite the opposite, it shows that you're totally bypassing/ignoring some important concepts on signal theory. And the part on "reflections" is just plain bonkers. Sorry.

My age and professional field is IRRELEVANT to this discussion. Period.

Now there's nothing more to day; i'll let other informed forumers reply to you.
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby fastdave » 31 May 2012 10:04

I'm glad there's nothing more to day, you're literary skills are obviously on a par with your technical knowledge - good day.
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby flavio81 » 31 May 2012 15:31

fastdave wrote:I'm glad there's nothing more to day, you're literary skills are obviously on a par with your technical knowledge - good day.


You might want to review your grammar and punctuation before making fun of another guy's "literary skills."
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby jorgelopez11 » 01 Jun 2012 05:49

fastdave wrote:Harmonics. Harmonics are what make sound, colour and the universe three dimensional.
Anyone who has ever dealt with the subject of light knows that the instant there is light, there is reflection.
Sound is not so different.
What happens when we digitize a sound, is that we take what should be a smoothly rising and falling sine wave, and divide it into steps - the difference between a rolling hill and steps - literally.
We have made it better and better by putting in more steps(bits), but the are still steps.
Imagine a car travelling up a hill - smooth climb, smooth hill - put in steps, and immediately the ride is dependent on the number of steps.
Now here's the part it may be hard to get your head around.
The reflections from a stepped or digitized sound or wave, must produce very different reflections and harmonics from a smooth sine wave.
The complex sound is then producing thousands of different square waves, altering the whole characteristic of the sound.
Real musical instruments produce sine waves, no matter what the instrument.
Further to that:-
Valves can be likened to listening to sound via a glass tube, and solid state like listening through sand, so why do transistors sound different to valves?
Harmonics.
The last concept is extreme, but quite a good analogy.
Let us make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler - Einstien


Wow! :shock:

This paragraph is a jewel

The reflections from a stepped or digitized sound or wave, must produce very different reflections and harmonics from a smooth sine wave.
The complex sound is then producing thousands of different square waves, altering the whole characteristic of the sound.


Fastdave, I'm afraid Flavio is right. You have no clue at all about sampling theory. :|
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby fastdave » 01 Jun 2012 09:08

Funny, My Grammar and punctuation are renowned, and funnier still, I wrote a paper for my thesis on sampling, but never mind, I've obviously been simplistic for everyone's benefit, and been shot at for my magnanimity, and hey, what do I know?
I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend you're right to say it. (You even have a right to be biased towards digitalism!!! (But you can still be wrong!!!))
Ecrasez l'infame.
Your amiable friend,
Dave (retired)
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby Bohuweno » 02 Jun 2012 03:11

fastdave wrote:I've obviously been simplistic for everyone's benefit, and been shot at for my magnanimity, and hey, what do I know?


It's difficult to tell.
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby macshifi » 02 Jun 2012 04:27

I'm a long-time subscriber to Stereophile magazine, and when they publish a review of a compact disc player, they include printed graphs of things like frequency response, noise, and, of course, sine waves. At 44.1 kHz 16 bits, they certainly don't look like sine waves, but more like square waves with overshoot at both ends of the square, top and bottom. At higher sampling frequencies and 24 bits, sine waves actually look like sine waves, and, no, I really don't want to know why things are like that, because I still won't understand.

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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby Werner » 19 Jun 2012 13:36

fastdave wrote:Harmonics. Harmonics are what make ...


Never in the field of signal theory was so much wrong in so many statements.
Michell Orbe/SME IV/Lyra Delos/Michell Iso & Orca & Alecto Stereo/Quad ESL-63/Denon DVD-2930/Apogee MiniDAC/Pioneer N-50 streamer
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby cats squirrel » 19 Jun 2012 14:39

Dave, maybe you should note where people come from on this forum, Flavio is not writing in his native language, neither are some others. (BTW, if I had his address, Flavio would be on my Christmas card list!)

As regards your comments about digital processing, you seem to be very confused (from one who studied digital electronics at Cambridge University, if you want my credentials).

And do you listen to FM radio up there in Scotland? Good sound? or the Radio 3 broadcasts on HD feed, on the net? Good, isn't it. And it's digital (the feed to the FM transmitters is digital!).

Music is not sine waves, neither do any natural instruments produce square waves!! Which university did you write your thesis for?

As for music credentials, I've been a musician for 55 years.
kind regards, Cats
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Re: Why Vinyl sounds better

Postby thespirit3 » 20 Jun 2012 12:29

When following the Nyquist rule, how/why would the sampling 'steps' on a sine wave not produce extra harmonics?

24/96 sounds superior to 16/44. I'm guessing the extra frequency response enhances capturing of naturally occurring harmonics and the extra bit depth reduces artificially created harmonics caused by the sampling 'steps'.

Probably too simplistic, I'm sure. A Google search on 'sampling theory' seems to return basic 'how to sample' documents or huge research papers, not much light reading on the subject.
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