Why Vinyl sounds better

[Werner]

Lavry's writings are mostly correct and relevant. Mind, I haven't read all of them, and certainly not recently.

http://www.lavryengineering.com.vhost.zerolag.com/lavry-white-papers/

[thespirit3]

Thanks Werner - this is *exactly* the sort of information I was looking for!

Excellent reading

[flavio81]

When following the Nyquist rule, how/why would the sampling 'steps' on a sine wave not produce extra harmonics?

Because there must be some sort of anti-alias filter that deletes such harmonics (actually images of the original audio, but shifted in frequency).

24/96 sounds superior to 16/44. I'm guessing the extra frequency response enhances capturing of naturally occurring harmonics and the extra bit depth reduces artificially created harmonics caused by the sampling 'steps'.

In my view the superiority of higher sampling rates resides simply in that the anti-alias filtering required on both the A/D and D/A stage is farther away from 20KHz, thus making it far easier to create a better A/D or D/A converter without resorting to tricks that introduce different problems like oversampling+digital filters, etc.

[Werner]

Tricks?

The use of oversampling with linear phase digital filtering at the replay side is a direct implementation of the crux of the sampling theorem itself. Hardly a trick, that.


BTW, aliases occur when the sampling rate is reduced (including A-to-D as a limit case), hence anti-aliasing filtering. Images occur when the sampling rate is increased (including D-to-A), hence anti-imaging filtering, also called reconstruction or interpolation. Aliases are not images.

[flavio81]

Tricks?

The use of oversampling with linear phase digital filtering at the replay side is a direct implementation of the crux of the sampling theorem itself. Hardly a trick, that.

I called it a "trick" compared to using a very-high-order low pass filter at around 20KHz, which was the initial way of doing it (on the dawn of digital audio).

BTW, aliases occur when the sampling rate is reduced (including A-to-D as a limit case), hence anti-aliasing filtering. Images occur when the sampling rate is increased (including D-to-A), hence anti-imaging filtering, also called reconstruction or interpolation. Aliases are not images.

Yes, you're right.

[Hanuman]

My take on the whole, so called, "paradox" of why vinyl replay should sound, to many people, more desirable than digital is that a certain, unjustified, assumption is made regarding the overall transparency of the whole recording and replay chain. There often seems to be an unspoken implication that that, from microphone to speaker, we are near to perfection and, therefore, how can a turntable do but corrupt this perfection?

Actually, there are colourations and distortions everywhere, some greater than others. Microphones are seriously imperfect and it only gets worse from there. Every device a signal passes through degrades it and imparts its own signature onto it. Then, speakers are as bad as microphones in converting between electrical and sound energy. We know that some distortions are more easy on the ear than others.

I, personally, don't see any contradiction in the evidence that many clearly hear that a reproduction chain that includes a turntable results in a sweet combination of colourations, making a more real and human attempt to portray a performance by real humans.

[Werner]

Yes.

Two-channel music recording for replay in a domestic environment is fundamentally flawed. There is no solution or paradigm that consistently and repeatably guarantees a 'they are here' or a 'I am there' experience. And this even before we take human auditory perception into account.

Seen at this level the concept of 'high fidelity' is laughable. And insisting on perfection of one specific link in a chain that in its total is a mess is faintly ridiculous.

In this light it is perfectly understandable that adding distortions and colourations at one specific spot may well enhance the listening experience for a non-zero group of people.


Of course this does not mean that an LP system is better. Only that it sounds better.

[FlavioAndre]

A guy i know that really understands about electronics told me that most of the amps convert the analogue signal in to digital. I dont know if there is some truth in this. Any way i prefer the experience of the vinyl disc, all the ritual, looking at the turntable spining its kind of relaxing/hipnotic, and the dimensions of the vinyl cover give another life to the art work of the cover.

[Alec124c41]

A guy i know that really understands about electronics told me that most of the amps convert the analogue signal in to digital. I dont know if there is some truth in this. Any way i prefer the experience of the vinyl disc, all the ritual, looking at the turntable spining its kind of relaxing/hipnotic, and the dimensions of the vinyl cover give another life to the art work of the cover.

The new multichannel AV amps do this. The good old stereo amps are analog all the way.

Cheers,
Alec

[jeffrey88]

I think there's really quite a fairly simple way to think about this complicated issue.

Number one is the process of how the sound is produced. With a turn table it is analog from the get-go, not DAC to convert the sound over or anything like that. On top of that a record is capable of handling frequencies well above what a CD player can produce - I believe even as high as 100khz. These two factors I believe are the main reasons why vinyl is better - more resolution in the sound, more depth, more warmth, etc.

[PeterW.]

All Snipped.

Why Vinyl sounds better...

It doesn't.

It sounds different.
It is fussy.
It can be very expensive to do properly.
It is an endangered species supported by other endangered species.

Imagine Caviar.
Truffles.

Would either be as attractive or have such cult followings were it (of the same quality and taste) available at your local 7-11 for $0.95/pound? Not hardly.

Back in the day, poor people in New England used to hide lobster shells in their trash as only the very poorest ate lobsters.

I appreciate Vinyl because I enjoy its sound. I came up on it, so it has euphonious memories. Digital media (*especially* when done properly) are utterly merciless and bad sources will sound absolutely horrible. Excellent sources will sound sublime. Vinyl has a way of 'forgiving' much that the digital media do not.

I see vinyl as the caviar/truffles/lobster of the audio hobby. I would never choose to eat caviar - the smell and consistency leaves me cold. Nor do truffles turn me on. On the other hand, lobster that is 20 minutes old from ocean to table is worth the trip, time and trouble!

But better? No. Not hardly, not at all. Different? Attractive? Yes, of course. And the sooner its mythology is debunked, the quicker we can get back to enjoying it rather than treating it as revealed religion.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[fastdave]

You all have the right to your opinons as long as they don't harm anybody - It's not racist or riot inciting to love or hate vinyl - It's not even illegal to slag off Cambridge against Glasgow, or one thesis against the next.
I know in heaven we have real music, and we trust vinyl.
Sigh! There lieth another argument!
I am glad of all of your opinions though, that's what makes change, and change is what makes life exciting - the best change we could make to the planet to keep listening to music is to reduce the use of the car - now there's a useful argument.
The 'orrible truth for digitisers is that it's not, obviously, as good as the hype.
I rest my case, and apologize for anything that I did not explain properly.
I also think we are less good at spelling, grammar and communicating clearly - but I really don't want to argue that one.
Yous amiable friend,
Dave

[flavio81]

On top of that a record is capable of handling frequencies well above what a CD player can produce - I believe even as high as 100khz.

You can't hear above ca. 20KHz. Most probably you -if you're an adult- can't even hear beyond 18KHz.

It's very difficult to put (and then read back) more than about 25KHz in a vinyl record (on the outer grooves). On the inner grooves, 16KHz is a typical limit.

You can put info between 20KHz to 50KHz if you cut with half-speed mastering, but said frequencies have to be about 18-20dB down relative to the rest. That's about 10 times quieter.

So no, the LP does not really have an advantage in this part.

[fastdave]

Sorry, Flavio, I hadn't realized you had continued this one.
When I spoke about reflections, I was very serious indeed. There are dimensions we cannot measure, for not only are our senses inadequate, we have no instrument to deal with matter we do not understand.
Hence the chase for Higg's Boson, and for ever, God.
Think of a nice meal you had lately - taste it and smell it in your mind - now explain that so that everyone understands it.
I think both Hawking and Penrose have danced on the edge of everything, life and death, but both know enough to know that theory is not everything.
Science is young, and we are old - the data we accumulate in a lifetime with all of our sensory memory cannot reasonably be stored on any machine. Yet.
I think most of you have all but missed my point, which is simply that digital theory is simply that. We are not necessarily right because we can expound a theory to the nth - any scientist will tell you that.
We are together in searching for great sound - to our ears.
Imagine my surprize, when I found people close miking Marshall amps for faithful reproduction - then putting it on to MP3.
Werner and Hanuman seem to have a good grasp on what I am saying.
I have perhaps assaulted some ivory towers, for after all, if one spends 5-9 years studying a subject under teachers who are given arbitrary rights, and some of them cannot impart what they think, they are probably within their rights to be offended - bit like me saying Glasgow university is superior to Cambridge - it's obvious to some.
After 40 odd years, it matters less. One sees people making fools of themselves for they have reached a plateau from which to shout.
Try explaining God.
It's as easy to explain as music.
Best of luck.
Dave