Cable or Colouration..

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goatbreath
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Cable or Colouration..

Post by goatbreath » 30 Oct 2019 17:30

I moved my LP12 to a wallshelf..

The only thing that has changed is the length of the interconnect between the phono stage and Quad 44 pre amp..

I was using chord Cobra 3 one metre..
I started using a 5 Metre interconnect...

One of these but the 5 Metre one,it looks chunky enough..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Techlink-Aud ... 3465466877

I now have quite a loss of bass and the sound was really good before..It doesn't sound like that now..
Could colouration have brought out more detail,Bass and Dynamics..
It was on a Rack before..
It is sounding less dynamic and tonal colour less vivid now as well now as well...
It sounds like a different turntable and pre amp basically..
I am tracking at the same weightI tuned the antiskate on both test records and normal ones and think that is as good as it gets..I only had to adjust thing very slightly..
The cartridge passes all the tracking tests..Everything is level..
Suspension bouncing properly etc..
The only thing different is the Interconnect..


I was thinking on maybe sending for a 5 Metre one of these,it is reasonably priced to do......https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linear-Cryst ... SwICpaDXy1

I'm sure the guy can solder better than me/has better equipment to do it...
It seems to be saying 90 Pf a Metre,that would be 450 Pf is that too high..??
Remember this is between Phono Stage and Pre Amp,not from Turntable..
I bought the cable out of Andrew Simpson,which is a proper Hifi'AV shop..
Or it at least sells that gear etc...

What are the chances of it being the cable causing the trouble..??
I thought the wallshelf would actually have improved things..
The LP12 itself sits on a thin rigid piece of chipboard with sorbothane feet..
As it did before..
It is say 3/4 of an inch thick..Which is sitting on an Apollo Wall Shelf..
I am using the exact same phono stage..

pivot
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by pivot » 30 Oct 2019 18:19

What is the capacitance per meter of the current interconnect? My guess, and only a guess, is the new interconnect added capacitance to the phono pre outputs and that has rolled off the bass. Try a lower capacitance cable.

goatbreath
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by goatbreath » 30 Oct 2019 18:34

pivot wrote:
30 Oct 2019 18:19
What is the capacitance per meter of the current interconnect? My guess, and only a guess, is the new interconnect added capacitance to the phono pre outputs and that has rolled off the bass. Try a lower capacitance cable.

It hasn't got the capacitance written on it,so no idea....
The interconnect has been about a while,it seems to consistently lighten the bass etc..
This is my guess too..
What would be a reasonable capacitance though..??

Pauw
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by Pauw » 30 Oct 2019 18:59

"Moved my LP 12 to a wall shelf" you have it in that sentence .....an LP 12 works best on a table with a glass shelf ....it's been written about in many pieces of literature...... :D

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by aardvarkash10 » 30 Oct 2019 19:13

a competent phono stage should not be greatly affected by reasonable changes in cable capacitance, but then stranger things have happened and not all phono stages are technically competent.

Before lashing out on a new cable, how about just return the tt to its original location and leaving the NEW cable in place. If the sound seems to revert back to its pre-move signature, the problem is the wall shelf/tt relocation. If it stays bass-shy, the cable is in question.
Last edited by aardvarkash10 on 30 Oct 2019 19:16, edited 1 time in total.

aardvarkash10
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by aardvarkash10 » 30 Oct 2019 19:14

Pauw wrote:
30 Oct 2019 18:59
"Moved my LP 12 to a wall shelf" you have it in that sentence .....an LP 12 works best on a table with a glass shelf ....it's been written about in many pieces of literature...... :D
fiction, or non-fiction?

:mrgreen:

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by pivot » 30 Oct 2019 19:26

aardvarkash10 wrote:
30 Oct 2019 19:13
a competent phono stage should not be greatly affected by reasonable changes in cable capacitance, but then stranger things have happened and not all phono stages are technically competent.

Before lashing out on a new cable, how about just return the tt to its original location and leaving the NEW cable in place. If the sound seems to revert back to its pre-move signature, the problem is the wall shelf/tt relocation. If it stays bass-shy, the cable is in question.
Agree on both comments.

Personally, I like turntable wall shelves........but Linn Sondeks seem to be particular about every little bloody thing.

I did work for a Linn dealer way back when. That was, however, before Linn went in for the feng shui and voodoo.

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by pivot » 30 Oct 2019 19:35

...oh...and I expect the capacitance per foot of single ended interconnect to be 20 pf or less. I make my interconnects out of Belden 89259 co-ax which is 17.3 pf a foot.

goatbreath
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by goatbreath » 30 Oct 2019 19:42

aardvarkash10 wrote:
30 Oct 2019 19:13
a competent phono stage should not be greatly affected by reasonable changes in cable capacitance, but then stranger things have happened and not all phono stages are technically competent.

Before lashing out on a new cable, how about just return the tt to its original location and leaving the NEW cable in place. If the sound seems to revert back to its pre-move signature, the problem is the wall shelf/tt relocation. If it stays bass-shy, the cable is in question.
Yep good idea about moving it back to check......The Phono Stage is a Pro-Ject SE 2...
One of the better Models with adjustable Capacitance and Moving coil ability..
It has sounded consistently very good..

goatbreath
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by goatbreath » 31 Oct 2019 18:58

It seems like the cable may be the culprit..
Add to that the treble sounding dirty grainy and trashy with the longer cable when I A/B ed with the metre long Chord cable.
Seems Chord don't give out what capacitance their cable is...
Surprise,Surprise..

I done a bit of reading some folk say you shouldn't use over 3 metres...
I have to to reach my Wall shelf,so need to use 5 Metres so can't use that route..

The Belden/Blue Jeans cable ends up costing a fortune in the UK..

So I had a search around and the lowest capacitance cable I could find was Van Damme 90 pf a metre..
So around 30 Pf a foot..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linear-Cryst ... SwICpaDXy1 can get cables custom made..

Sorry Tempted by the cosmetic braiding,it's not expensive...
I might get a bit better Phono Plugs too.

These look good.. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-x-High-Qua ... SwyjZco5Tz

These wires would end up cheaper than the Belden/Blue Jeans ones..

Are they liable to sound OK over a 5 metre run though is the question..
That fierce trashy treble is not nice..
I know I am still taking an element of risk..
I have shorter thinner Van Damme between my Quad 44 and 405 2 and it sounds good..
Everything seems safe apart from cable length..

aardvarkash10
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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by aardvarkash10 » 31 Oct 2019 21:13

capacitance tends to increase with the diameter of the cable (more to it than that, but as a first order approximation it works). Hence, large, heavy looking cables tend to be high capacitance. Manly, testosterone filled and impressive, but technically less useful.

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by lenjack » 31 Oct 2019 21:45

Excess capacitance will roll off the treble, not the bass.

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by jdjohn » 31 Oct 2019 21:46

Wait...is someone saying that cables make a difference??? :shock: Some folks on this forum would say you're just imagining it.

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by pivot » 31 Oct 2019 21:46

aardvarkash10 wrote:
31 Oct 2019 21:13
capacitance tends to increase with the diameter of the cable (more to it than that, but as a first order approximation it works). Hence, large, heavy looking cables tend to be high capacitance. Manly, testosterone filled and impressive, but technically less useful.
Also the more complex the construction the higher the capacitance. Simple 75 ohm coaxial cable tends to have the lowest capacitance. Twisted pair pseudo balanced and even more exotic conductor configurations tend to look wondrous but not measure so fantastic.

For single ended connections professional standard is RG59 coaxial - bare copper conductors - braided shield. Belden 89259 has polypropylene for insulation and outer jacket giving it some "high-end" street cred.

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Re: Cable or Colouration..

Post by pivot » 31 Oct 2019 21:50

jdjohn wrote:
31 Oct 2019 21:46
Wait...is someone saying that cables make a difference??? :shock: Some folks on this forum would say you're just imagining it.
Cable capacitance (, and inductance, and impedance) is MEASURABLE.

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