No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

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wgmontgomery
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No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 24 Oct 2019 06:05

Hi!!
I'm looking for a cleaning solution for my ultrasonic cleaner; I know that there are A LOT out there, but I'm looking for something (DIY or store bought) that:

-Has NO alcohol
-Doesn't require a rinse

If anyone has a DIY brew that fits the bill, I'd certainly appreciate the recipe! If there's one available online I'd appreciate that input too!

FWIW-I have an idea for a semi-DIY solution. Amounts of each ingredient are TBD, but here's the starting point:

~6 Liters DISTILLED water (that's the amount of cleaner/water my ultrasonic holds)

~2 capfulls Spin Clean LP cleaner (probably more, but it's easier to add later)

~5ml Ilford Ilfotol wetting agent

PLEASE feel free to make suggestions...more or less my ingredients or something else altogether.

I plan on doing some cleaning on Friday and will report my results that afternoon or Saturday l.

Stay tuned and thanks again!

wgmontgomery
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 24 Oct 2019 06:07

Just to be clear, the cleaner isn't FOR the untrasonic; it's for LPs that are to be cleaned in the ultrasonic...LOL

wgmontgomery
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 24 Oct 2019 06:39

If someone has an efficient and effective way to rinse the LPs, I'm certainly game. Ideally I'd empty the cleaning solution out of the Ultrasonic, fill it with clean distilled water and rinse the albums by running them again sans cleaner.

I don't have the gear (a fast filtered pump would be ideal, but I have neither the $$ nor the space) needed to rinse the LPs in the ultrasonic, but if anyone has an ideas I'm certainly open to tlem! I thought about getting another ultrasonic, but think that a record vacuum is a better option. Of course, ~$88 (6L ultrasonic) is easier to save for than a Record Dr. V $199! Maybe in November!?!

Yak_Forger
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by Yak_Forger » 24 Oct 2019 07:20

I've given your solution a try, it works quite well, my LPs were cleaned and not damaged. And as wgmontgomery said, I rinsed them in a second bath of 100% distilled water afterwards.

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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 24 Oct 2019 09:21

May I ask what amount(s) of each did you use? I haven't tried it yet, but my plan is:

6L DISTILLER water
~10ml (2 capfuls) Spin Clean cleaner
~5ml of wetting agent (Ilford Ifotol)

I BELIEVE that the ratios (if I am wrong PLEASE feel free to make corrections) would be:
600 parts DISTILLED water
1 part Spin Clean record cleaner
0.5 part Ilford Ifotol wetting agent

Although this recipe doesn't require a rinse after use, I can't help but think that it would be beneficial to the LPs

YF-you stated that you rinsed the records after cleaning; is there a method that you would share with us?
Thanks!!

chgc
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by chgc » 29 Oct 2019 01:50

Just out of curiousity, what's wrong with alcohol?

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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 29 Oct 2019 15:48

I've heard from several sources that over time it may not be good for vinyl.

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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 29 Oct 2019 16:32

The first mention of this that I remember is from Analog Planet. I think that it's mentioned during "Record Cleaning Made Difficult" on YouTube.

The alcohol is supposed to make vinyl brittle over time. I certainly can't state that I am 100% sure that alcohol is bad for LPs, but I decided to find a cleaner that doesn't have any.

I'll also add that the recipe mentioned at the start of this thread (6L distilled water, a cap full of Spin Clean's cleaner and ~5ml of Ifotol) worked really well in my ultrasonic cleaner.

chgc
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by chgc » 30 Oct 2019 00:20

Thanks for the response, wgm. I’m not too worried about the very low concentration of alcohol I use in my ultrasonic cleaner. I suspect I could dispense with it altogether and get similar results. I use just a splash of alcohol and a few drops of detergent. This works well enough for me, most of the time. Occasionally, I have to clean a record twice, but I think moderate heat and ultrasonic action do most of the work.

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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 30 Oct 2019 01:24

I can not state that I know for sure that alcohol is bad for vinyl. I CAN say that there are plenty of cleaners that don't contain alcohol, and it makes sense to me to use them if there's a chance that alcohol might damage vinyl.

The problem (as I understand it) is that alcohol leeches a chemical out of the record that, over time, causes it to become brittle.

It certainly seems plausible that alcohol (isopropyl alcohol to be specific) may not be good for records; both are hydrocarbons and "like dissolves like." There also appears to be some debate over which alcohols are bad for vinyl; I've heard that ethanol (the alcohol in beer, wine, vodka etc.) is NOT bad; I've also heard that it's worse.

My decision to eschew alcohol is based on the relative ease of avoiding it and the difficulty in replacing (for example) my Beatles in Mono box set.

I am certainly open to any information on this subject; I'd love to see some scientific evidence for OR against alcohol. Until there's proof one way or the other I choose not to risk it.

Thanks for your input!!

cats squirrel
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by cats squirrel » 30 Oct 2019 02:02

lots of urban myths in your statement.

First up, neither alcohols or PVC are hydrocarbons, and ethanol or propanol CANNOT dissolve PVC. Also, vinyl records do not contain plasticisers, so CANNOT be leached out (even water would leach them out if present!)

You seemed loathed to use alcohol, but are quite happy for people to use ultrasonic cleaning.

Has the world gone mad?

wgmontgomery
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 30 Oct 2019 08:50

For clarity's sake I'll rephrase: alcohol is derived from hydrocarbons; it contains Carbon, Oxygen and hydrogen. PVC is a chlorinated hydrocarbon...I was trying to keep things on the simple side as the point still remains
Water (NOT a hydrocarbon or organic molecule for that matter) generally has little to no effect on hydrocarbons; certain (smaller) alcohols will dissolve in water due to the polarity of the molecules.

What issue do you have with ultrasonic cleaning?

cats squirrel
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by cats squirrel » 30 Oct 2019 14:56

for clarity's sake, hydrocarbons are chemicals which have ONLY hydrogen and carbon in them!

As regards like dissolves like, propanol and PVC are about as much alike as chalk and cheese. For stubborn stains and oily marks (I buy records from anywhere, and they can have virtually anything on them) I use d-limonene, a hydrocarbon extracted from orange skins. It does not harm the (vinyl) record.

What issue do I have with ultrasonic baths? Well, for one who has used sonic baths for 40 years in laboratories, CAVITATION. This is what Wiki has to say:

"Non-inertial cavitation is the process in which a bubble in a fluid is forced to oscillate in size or shape due to some form of energy input, such as an acoustic field. Such cavitation is often employed in ultrasonic cleaning baths and can also be observed in pumps, propellers, etc. "

and here is a pic of what cavitation can do to a metal propeller:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/489 ... 0f57_b.jpgcavitation by cats squirrel borrowed without permission.

Now, would you put a precious vinyl record in a sonic bath? I wouldn't.

wgmontgomery
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by wgmontgomery » 30 Oct 2019 23:35

Yes, hydrocarbons are molecules that only contain C & H. However (much like using *non IUPAC names like acetone and benzene) it is VERY common to refer to substances like PVC as "Chlorinated hydrocarbons." Here's just ONE example from the EPA:

https://www.epa.gov/eg/chlorine-and-chl ... y#what-are

I confess that I am no expert on the subject of propeller damage due to cavitation, but the articles that I read allayed any fear of damage that I had.

FWIW-I posed a question on this forum about non-alcoholic no rinse cleaning solutions for albums; I thought that the purpose was to share relevant information...not post snarky comments. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't get the sense that your comments were meant to help or inform.

You and I are free to clean our albums by whatever method we deem safe & effective; we don't have to agree...nor do I have to engage in what has devolved to pointless prattle.

cats squirrel
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Re: No alcohol no rinse cleaner for ultrasonic??

Post by cats squirrel » 01 Nov 2019 12:21

your premise that alcohol could damage vinyl records is predicated on a falsehood. And that as alcohol and pvc are hydrocarbons (and by your definition, aren't 99.99% of all organic compounds?) one must dissolve the other. I suggest you put your high school chemistry book back on the shelf and start to look at reality. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

I suppose you will say that painting PVA glue onto PVC plastic is bad, because PVA is an alcohol and they both contain PV. :?

For what it is worth, I believe whatever cleaner solution is chosen, it be fit for purpose, rather than one size fits all. So I use water, BAC 50, Polysorbate 20, bio-ethanol, propan-2-ol or d-Limonene (or combinations), depending on the dirt to be removed. I do not (and will never) use sonication. I have found neat bio-ethanol to be very good for records used in a smoker's listening room.

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