Help needed: low noise cartridge for Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm

[Mechtersheimer]

My first post in this forum was not very successful, I haven't received any feedback on below post in the Hardware Forum. Maybe it was the wrong location? So I try here again...
Its interesting that for the same tonearem (Pro-Ject 9cc), very different cartridge types are used on Music Hall and Pro-Ject turntables, respectively. I don't think this has technical reasons? As said below, I have a noise issue with the Goldring Eroica, which is widely used on Music Halls, but hardly on Pro-Jects. This is so far the only issue I have with my new Music Hall 9.1, otherwise I am very satisfied (very low noise motor, very transparent and well balanced sound with good bass and without harsh heights).
My questions are:
1. With speakers off, at what distance can you still hear your system playing?
2. Do you have a specific recommendation for a good "low noise" system for my turntable? What's e.g. about Goldring 1022 or 1042?
____________________________
What needle talk is "normal"?
I own a Music Hall 9.1, which is equipped with the Pro-Ject 9cc tonearm and came with the Eroica LX cartridge. Needle talk is really loud, with speakers off I can still hear it in 8m distance. I am running a digital room correction system, therefore the speaker sound is delayed. Accordingly, I can clearly hear the needle talk as an annoying pre-echo at my normal listening position (about 2 m away from the turntable).
In the past I had a Thorens TD146 with a medium mass tonearm, I never noticed such a disturbing needle talk with any cartridge (including MC).
Questions:
Anyone having a similar experience with this player/tonearm/cartridge combination? Or is this rather an indication of whatever defect?
I have read that the Eroica tends to be a bit on the "loud" side. Does "loud" mean that needle noise could still be heard at 2m distance? After my complaints, the dealer considers to bring a replacement MH 9.1, so I want to be prepared if he argues that such a needle talk has to be accepted. Or would you recommend that I should ask for another type of cartride (recommendations welcome)?
Thanks a lot for your feedback.
Günter

[markcass]

Hi

Personally, I've never heard much needle talk unless I am quite close to the turntable, not at my listening position. I have certainly never heard it from 8 metres away, that seems very unusual

I think it might be exacerbated by some other details of the system, not just the choice of cartridge. For example, the 9cc arm is very rigid and light, but measurements I have seen suggest the structure is completely undamped, so any vibration excited within the cartridge is not going to be attenuated. This could amplify the natural level of needle-talk, much like the original horn gramophone, though at a lower level.

Whatever the source of the trouble, I think it might be worth trying a bit of damping material at the headshell end, preferably something non-permanent in case it has other effects you don't like. You would obviously need to adjust the tracking force to compensate for the extra weight.

As an example, Van den Hul has applied a damping pad to the front of one of his top-end cartridges, which apparently eliminated needle talk completely. It looked like a small piece of red Velcro, or maybe felt, at the front of the open structure. A pad on top of the headshell might also work.

As to a change of cartridge, anything that doesn't energise the structure too much could potentially offer improvement. A moving-magnet (or moving-iron) cartridge of medium compliance or above might feed less vibrational energy into the arm than the average moving-coil. I used the Goldring 1042 you mention (and the earlier 1020 and 1040) for many years, and they gave good service in several different arms without stressing any of them (even a very "Basik" Linn LVV!).

If you want to stick with an MC cartridge, some of the better Project decks (roughly of the status of your Music Hall) come with an Ortofon MC. I used an MC15 (predecessor of the Vivo Red and Blue) as a replacement for the 1042, and certainly didn't notice any problems - in fact, the sound improved. The Vivo models use the same body design.

HTH

Mark

[raphaelmabo]

I don't have an answer to this "needle sound", but I wish to comment on cartridge and tonearm compatibility.

Goldring Eroica LX or GX has medium-to-high compliance (I've seen figures of 18), unusual for a MC cartridge, so from a technical perspective they work well with the Project 9CC tonearm which is a low mass tonearm. Oh, why Pro-Ject and Music Hall offers different cartridges, well... the management simply favors different cartridges. I've seen Roy Hall giving high praise to Goldring in interviews.

In Europe, Pro-Ject is often delivered with Ortofon MM cartridges. In the US, the distributor is Sumiko and likes to offer Pro-Ject with their own Sumiko cartridges.

[Mechtersheimer]

Thanks a lot!
I already tried few things like reducing the contact between cartridge and headshell, as well as putting some damping material on various tonearm locations - with some, but still insufficient effect. Before doing further mods like tonearm wrapping, I want to await the dealer's TT exchange, hopefully later this month. I may also ask him to bring a different (Goldring?) cartridge type with him for cross-checking - if the Eroica is also loud at the replacement TT.
I also did a frequency response measurement, using pink noise from a test record. It shows a resonance peak at around 12 Hz, indicating a higher cartridge compliance than the quoted 18. Would this also contribute to more needle noise?
Günter

[moon unit]

I am using the same arm with an Ortofon Rondo cartridge and needle talk is at normal levels, I can't hear it from 2m away let alone 8m. You can actually hear it from 8m away? Is this a large, "hard" room that tends to echo?

markcass is 100% right about what he said about the 9cc arm, cartridge/tonearm resonance is nearly completely undamped. Whether that is contributing to the needle talk I don't know, but if you've found that damping has helped some you need to emply the Oracle silicone tonearm damper made specifically for the 9cc arm. This will more effectively damp the tonearm than anything else you could try and brings a whole host of improvements to the sound quality. It should be available in Europe sometime soon, it has been available in North America for about six months now. There is a thread further down in this section that gives details on it and contact information.

[Mechtersheimer]

Thanks for the Oracle damping recommendation, looks very interesting. Have you tried this yourself on your tonearm?
I have a normally damped living room of about 35m2, with an attached (only slightly damped) hallway. The 8m is at the far end of this hallway...

[moon unit]

Yes, I have been using the damper for four months. My review, and photos of it fitted to my table, are posted on that thread. I would never go back to using the undamped arm.

I do have a large, "hard" room that tends to echo but I don't have the problem you are describing. This was even before I fitted the damper. I don't have any experience with Goldring cartridges however.

[Purnendu]

Hi,
I listen to the rpm 9.1/9cc tonearm with a zyx bloom cartridge in a near field set up. There is some needle sound but it is hardly obtrusive. Perhaps you could do with a better needle profile.

[Mechtersheimer]

Hello

In the mean time, I received an exchange MH turntable - still too noisy for my listening setup.
I also tried different cartridges: Benz Micro Gold - no significant difference. Ortofon Vinylmaster Red: less noise, but still disturbing.

I considered to invest into the recommended Oractle tonearm damping system. However, it seems that this system is not readily available in Europe.

So finally I decided to go for a Rega RP6 with the RB303 tonearm, I got a reasonable exchange offer from my dealer.
I set it up yesterday, and I am very satisfied so far: turntable is quiet, sound is good (though somewhat different from the MH, more on the brighter side, likely also due to the different cartridge - I have installed the Benz Gold presently), and needle talk is much less and no longer disturbing. This seems to be consistent with tonearm tests at HiFiNews, showing that the Rega tonearm has significantly less resonances.

Günter