When did RnB turn bad....and who's to blame ?

[Dadimo]

I think there are some groups out there that have the "old school" R&B sound, but they may not be getting the mainstream exposure of similar music that was released in "the golden age" of R&B. I have to say golden age, because I think it has passed
Vocal groups that sang accapella style( some called them boy bands) made a brief comeback in the 90's, but I think it has been reduced to samples of some of these classic R&B songs, used in re-vamped and remixed modern versions. Every now and then a song will come along that has a nice classic R&B sound to it, but its hard to find complete albums of these types of groups anymore sadly..

This song reminded me of the classic R&B sound a bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UXvcr22rM

[fscl]

70 Years.....

Found this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/arts/ ... wanted=all

Fred

[watercourse]

Well, that will be an interesting show... Curtis Mayfield is definitely worthy of a tribute. His Live album is one of my all-time faves.

PS I saw Al Green this year, and will be seeing my hero Stevie when he plays at Outside Lands next month. Oh and got my tix for the Mary/D'Angelo show too.

[Jorlsafar]

As there are several knowledgeable Americans on the thd, may I ask if the meaning of the term R&B has changed from meaning proto rock n roll (the kind the label Atlantic would issue in the 50s) to soul/hip-hop or if the term always included the latter genres?

All the best!

[majerjack]

Jorlsafar poses a good question. What does the term R&B mean? Has the meaning changed over the years? At what point did people stop using "Rhythm and Blues" and start using "R&B"? It seems as though many different musical styles are pushed under that R&B umbrella. Is the term defined by the artists who make the music? Are classic blues artists such as Muddy Waters included? What about soul artists such as the Temptations or funk artists such as Rufus (featuring Chaka Khan, of course!). Is the main determining factor for calling music R&B that it be made by Americans of African descent?

My two cents: I really like the soul of the 1960's and the funk of the 1970's. Someone more knowledgeable than I can tell me whether those styles fit under the R&B moniker.

[watercourse]

Someone on this thread mentioned Nelson George's "The Death of Rhythm and Blues" as worthy of a read based on the OP's initial question. Some of you may already know Mr. George as a very knowledgeable music critic - if not the foremost authority on post-60s Black music - if you were around and reading critiques in the 80s and 90s.

Well, in his book, soul, hip hop, funk, quiet storm, classic Motown, as well as Philly, Memphis, LA, etc. styles are all considered R&B. Honestly, I have some problems with this book, but, I also have to say that my discomfort is not that I disagree with what Mr. George lays out, but that he's right and it's downright uncomfortable. It covers situations, topics and themes in the specific context of African Americans, but that are shared by all so-called "hyphenated Americans" (Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Irish-Americans, Jewish-Americans, etc.), and the consequences of life in the US for these groups is a steady "bleaching" of sensibilities, values, and art forms to the larger social/material/temporal values - and these values also change over time.

Anyway, back to Jorlsafar's question: My experience is that the umbrella term "R&B" came to be used by the music industry as lazy shorthand for all Black-oriented music (you now hear the term "urban music" used to denote the same genres). What I mean by "Black-oriented" is that is was created by and for African Americans, however, those of us growing up in inner cities also clearly found this music just as compelling then and now.

So, those of us that came up in the era covered in the "Death of R&B" might just end up using the term R&B to cover all African American-based music forms. Actually, when people as me what kind of music I like best, I usually say "jazz, R&B, and hip hop" because I feel they are all closely related. If I use the term broadly, it doesn't mean that I don't respect or recognize the differences in eras, geographies, rhythms, or contexts, it's just easier for me to say that than: "They're a hip hop and soul band with a 70s funk sound, like Public Enemy's politically conscious approach, but with three MCs, an underground vibe, and an old school horn section, but they've also got hard bop grooves from a real back up band and singers, and of course a DJ".

[fscl]

Caught this on the radio today, extreme compartmentalization ? as mentioned previously:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/08/23/go-go-go

Still sounds good to me from the snippets played.

Fred

[hotpants16]

i blame r.kelly, just cause' he hasen't been accused of anything for a little while.




16

[fscl]

As there are several knowledgeable Americans on the thd, may I ask if the meaning of the term R&B has changed from meaning proto rock n roll (the kind the label Atlantic would issue in the 50s) to soul/hip-hop or if the term always included the latter genres?

All the best!

Does this help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_record

Wexler was interviewed / appeared in "Tom Dowd, The Language of Music" and spoke about Race records metamorphizing into the R & B genre.....

Fred

[Jorlsafar]

As there are several knowledgeable Americans on the thd, may I ask if the meaning of the term R&B has changed from meaning proto rock n roll (the kind the label Atlantic would issue in the 50s) to soul/hip-hop or if the term always included the latter genres?

All the best!

Does this help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_record

Wexler was interviewed / appeared in "Tom Dowd, The Language of Music" and spoke about Race records metamorphizing into the R & B genre.....

Fred

Thanks all for the replies and sorry that I didn't check in to read them . Rude.

So I guess that what you're all saying is that as it was an artificial categorisation to start with, one shouldn't be bothered that it has come to encompass any and all genres that somehow are related to AA music.

[whitenoise]

As a British person saying what I want to say.....

The Who....Maximum RnB.

[whitenoise]

As a British person saying what I want to say.....

The Who....Maximum RnB.

[whitenoise]

If you like the music then it does not matter what pigeon hole it dwells in, you may find what you consider to be good RnB under say the alt rock section. We need to have systems in place that do sort music into some sort of order, for a lot of reasons, one being music shops etc , if we had no system then the shops would just be rows and rows of music, maybe the band, artist or composer would be put together but it would be a pain to visit such a shop, maybe a little bit like Ebay, if you type in vinyl records with no other info then you just get all the vinyl that happens to be on the system at that time.

The other main reason is trends and as always the bottom line MONEY, if a certain kind of music hits the big time the bankers who seem to run the show these days want to know how long have they can milk it and where can I get me more of the same.

So dont be fooled by this mainly made up system, think of a genre of music , say punk. Now whatever is outside that "label" must be "not punk" by definition, the opposite is also true, a lot of music of that '77 to 79 era is classed as punk mainly because of association but in reality it's not punk. The Clash started as punk but ended as not punk , or at least not as punk, the stranglers are another example, MC5's "kick out the jams" is not classed as punk as it was recorded before punk arrived, had it been recorded in the punk era Im sure it would have been in under the banner.

Good luck finding what you consider to be RnB but remember, its easier to change your mind than to change the system, independent record shops that specialise in vinyl are a very good place to visit and get to know, the staff usually know there stuff and can suggest stuff to listen to that maybe you have not considered before, If you tell them what kind of stuff youre into.
Anyway thats my rant over, im going to go and listen to Prokofiev's symphony no 2 in d minor....its one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever.

[josephazannieri]

Yo discussers and intellectualizers of R & B:

I have only one question:

What ever happened to Billy Ward and the Dominoes? Or Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats? Or Ruth Brown? Or Todd Rhodes? Or La Verne Baker? Or Ida Cox? Or Connie Allen? Or Bull Moose Jackson? Etc. Etc. Etc.

I will now duck into the bunker and put on my Kevlar vest to dodge the flak I may get for interfering in a discussion of how music has deteriorated. But the artists I list, from antedeluvian times WAY BACK WHEN, even before the advent of music videos, were being excoriated as the downfall of music when I was a kid. It's all the same...

These guys and girls didn't get blasted for calling women hoes or shaking their booties, they got blasted for bragging about their BIG TEN INCH records, and claiming that they were Sixty Minute Men, or One Hour Mamas.

And good luck from that old guy mired firmly in the dirty past,

Joe Z.