Why are people obsessed with 180g - Merged Thread

[kelvinMunson]

i can't help but feel that all this re-mastering, and 180g thing is a load of rubbish and a complete money making con.
there were clearly nowt up with the old records and nothing has been gained from messing about with them.
£17-£25 for a record!? is it just me? am i mental?

Using a historic inflation calculator, £17 today is equivalent to £1-31 in 1970. I seem to recall albums then were costing 32 shillings, or about £1.60 ?

Also, unless it's in the charts and a supermarket/Amazon deal, new CDs often cost about £15 a pop......... £17 doesn't seem too bad deal to me.

[mickb69]

I think it's a matter of the studiorecording in the first place

yeah, think so

[mickb69]

i can't help but feel that all this re-mastering, and 180g thing is a load of rubbish and a complete money making con.
there were clearly nowt up with the old records and nothing has been gained from messing about with them.
£17-£25 for a record!? is it just me? am i mental?

Using a historic inflation calculator, £17 today is equivalent to £1-31 in 1970. I seem to recall albums then were costing 32 shillings, or about £1.60 ?

Also, unless it's in the charts and a supermarket/Amazon deal, new CDs often cost about £15 a pop......... £17 doesn't seem too bad deal to me.

i think maybe it's because i m viewing the whole situation differently, when i was first listening to records, we just already had them, everybody did did'nt they so it was easy to take them for granted, and the ones that i had picked up recently were from flea markets, car boots, family and friends, and it's just come as a shock to see it being a bandwagon thing.
i soon moved onto CDs as i grew up and would not have been able to monitor the price inflation.
i saw it as sort of a secret thing, like nobody's bothered about vinyl and so they are selling it without too much sentiment, or people selling it for their grandparents so i could reap all this great stuff and have my own little world, an escape from the corporate crap that is constantly churning out of the music business, jedward, vengaboys, kanye west, there is very little out there today that is worthy of listening to, let alone buying,
so you have to look backwards, and there's this vast rich land from which we can dig up amazing records for a quid or two, if they don't sound so great, at least you've only spent a quid on it, if you've spent £21 on a record that sounds horrible (recording wise), then that's not on.
as long as the new expensive records sound AMAZING then it's fair enough.

[Audio_Man]

If you want to sort out the wheat from the chaf in terms of new vinyl remasterings keep an eye on the Steve Hoffman forum. Most significant reissues get an airing and posters who must buy every copy will give honest comparisons v original pressings.

If you look at inflation it can be argued that most LP's are no more expensive than in the early 70's. There are plenty of good vinyl releases by artists of merit these days. It isn't all R & B you know. SQ is often surprisingly good even for new digitaly sourced material. Most are on 140/150g if not 180g and for non-audiophile releases the differences are of little importance.

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

I bought my first proper hifi setup in '88, NAD integrated amp, NAD CD player and Dali speakers. I kept my B&O TT that I've bought at 14 for money from my newspaper route. But not long after I got rid of the TT since the CD's sounded so mutch better at the time: Better dynamics, bass and no surface noise or skipping tracks. But you have to remember that back then I knew noting about how to set up a TT properly or stylus worn. TT's and casette decks was the only thing around in my childhood and teenage years and you just bought and used the dam'n thing with no instruction from the seller. No wonder the CD was a hit, plug and play. Today we who rediscowered vinyl and newcommers who newer have used TT's before can get all the know how of TT setup buy a few mouseclicks. And it really is'nt so diffucult to set it up right and make it sound better than the CD player. That said, I personally think there is a lot of hype around Vinyl playback: Recordwashing machines and spaced up TT's that cost an arm and a leg, antistatic guns, recordpucks etc. and offcause 180 gr. LP's, audiophile rerecordings and so on. I mean, it's not gold... just a vinyl disc and just musical entertainment. Even the modest moden cartridges and TT's are quite good at musical reproduction and even the most worn LP's can be played with accepable surface noise. And even some of the bad LP recordings is better reproduced than bad CD recordings. So, again personally, I don't get the hole clean copy audiophile remastering thing. If one want clean and a differnt sound than the original LP, well you can get that from a really good CD player or digital mediaplayer.

[D.]

Spot on V and T Dude! Excellent post.

[Audio_Man]

I bought my first proper hifi setup in '88, NAD integrated amp, NAD CD player and Dali speakers. I kept my B&O TT that I've bought at 14 for money from my newspaper route. But not long after I got rid of the TT since the CD's sounded so mutch better at the time: Better dynamics, bass and no surface noise or skipping tracks. But you have to remember that back then I knew noting about how to set up a TT properly or stylus worn. TT's and casette decks was the only thing around in my childhood and teenage years and you just bought and used the dam'n thing with no instruction from the seller. No wonder the CD was a hit, plug and play.

By 1988 TT's were well out of the dark ages. If you had gone to a proper dealer or read a few hi-fi magazines there is no excuse for bad set up. Most who didn't have the knowhow or patience had already migrated to cd anyway. This was at the end of the peak period of hi-fi popularity. Proper vinyl playback on high quality turntables at it's zenith shown by sales of Lp12s and Regas.

Today we who rediscowered vinyl and newcommers who newer have used TT's before can get all the know how of TT setup buy a few mouseclicks. And it really is'nt so diffucult to set it up right and make it sound better than the CD player.

Yes it is now easy for the less committed and lazy person to get information and free advice due to the internet.

That said, I personally think there is a lot of hype around Vinyl playback: Recordwashing machines and spaced up TT's that cost an arm and a leg, antistatic guns, recordpucks etc. and offcause 180 gr. LP's, audiophile rerecordings and so on. I mean, it's not gold... just a vinyl disc and just musical entertainment.

It's certainly not hype. RCM's do improve sound and are a great tool for restoring dirty used purchases. Antistatic guns were around in the 70's. Record pucks are integral to the design of many TT's. Audiophie Lp's are not rerecordings - they are remasterings that when done properly go back to the actual master rather than the Eq'd copy used for most standard Lp production. More expensive TT's do improve sound repro. There is of course the law of diminishing returns but do not dismiss because you can't afford something better. Also turntables have been steadily improved since the near death of vinyl 20 years ago and probably at a greater rate than CD reproduction.

Even the modest moden cartridges and TT's are quite good at musical reproduction and even the most worn LP's can be played with accepable surface noise.

Yes quite good can be achieved for relatively little but you have to pay for top quality. I have bever heard a realy worn LP that can be tolerated on a decent system. Minor imperfections can fade into the background with many good cartridges and phono stages. A strange statement to make considering you moved to Cd due to noise and mistracking.

And even some of the bad LP recordings is better reproduced than bad CD recordings. So, again personally, I don't get the hole clean copy audiophile remastering thing. If one want clean and a differnt sound than the original LP, well you can get that from a really good CD player or digital mediaplayer.

People play Lp's to achieve an all analogue sound from older analogue recordings. So a quiet Cd in only 16 bit digital is not audibly as good as a clean vinyl pressing. You can get clean originals if you look long enough or in some cases pay enough as well as clean reissues. Often reissues are better mastered and often not. It certainly makes sense to purchase a good audiophile remaster for original titles that are now reaching stratospheric prices.

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

In 1988 I was 20 and lived in a small town with your awage radio / TV shops. In Denmark we had one (!) TV channel controlled by the state (yes, it's true) No internet offcause, I knew what I knew from the info I could get from my local environment. So offcause I wasn't lazy, I just didn't knew better nor did my freinds or the small Radio/TV shops. And suddenly CD's was the new thing at an affordable price and offcause us young people grab it, just like the young today have taken MP3 on portable players and smartphones and think it's the best alternative.

I can't see how seeking info on TT setup on the web makes a person less committed and lazy to hi-fi. What else should one do before one's not committed and lazy ..climb a mounten too ask some wise man?

Dismiss because one can't afford something better.. A TT at the price of a small car to play a vinyl record..how mutch more information can you get out of the groowes with that kind of equipment and how good is the human ear?

I did'nt know how well even a worn LP can sound back then and offcause I was annoyed by surface noise and mistracking since my 6 years old TT probally had worn stylus and was poorly set up because of what I wrote first.

The producers of Records and TT's was just not as good at marketing as the producers of CD and CD players back then. If they had been, I think a lot of people would have kept their records.
Today is a differnt story, but excuse me for not buying into the hole "it have to cost an extreme amount of money to sound right" thing. Like I said it's my personal opinion. And yes I have heard High end setups at shows that would cost me two years pay before taxes. It did sound very clinical and dissected with no nerve or groove. And you can't get me to think it sound wonderful just because of the pricetag.

Like most people, I got a decent hi-fi and like to spind some records because I like good music. It's just music, it's just records not rocket science.

[fade away]

In the mid 80`s vinyl cost around £5.45 in Our price,i think? so 30 year`s on increase in price £25 not bad.

7" / 10" / 12" singles or 140g / 180g / 200g albums, new or second hand i don`t care, to know vinyl is out selling CD`s great!!!

LONG LIVE VINYL

[jc_the_trucker]

to know vinyl is out selling CD`s great!!!

Of course! Why buy CDs when there's iTunes ? And for that matter why buy digital media when there's Bittorrent?

Oh no I fear the government and the RIAA have seen this, I hear a blackhawk approaching the truck stop......and Bruce Willis and about 15 Navy SEALs are roping down! Cummins Diesel, don't fail me now!!!

[Audio_Man]

Vinyl and tube dude. So you couldn't know about TT set up untill you discovered the internet? Well myself and others knew about it decades ago because we read it in magazines and books or asked a more knowledgable aquaintance. Surely you were aware that a stylus wears out and a cheap one more rapidly.

How can you call yourself 'vinyl and tube dude' if you are so unaware of the possibilities of retrieving information from the groove. The better the TT/arm/ cartridge the more you get because analogue is not limited as is a digital sample. So you can't accept a E2000 TT is better than a E300 TT ? You don't need to spend the price of a car but you can get better by spending more reasonable amounts. Just because I can't afford a E20,000 TT doesn't mean I am blind to the fact it is better than my own. Shows are generaly not a good way to assess equipment and make finite judgements.

[Vinyl and Tube Dude]

My next TT will acturally cost about 2000£ infact (roughly converted £ to Dkr). The total amount of my current setup is about 9000 £. Offcause I know good quality cost money but I just think there's a physical limit where you just can't get more or better info out of an LP. Where that limit is in terms of money I don't know. But I think when you start with all kind of exotic wires and strange contructions, in my opinion, you move from actual listning to psychical delusion. Sure I can hear a clear diffence on a Rega P9 and my own Debut III and a clear diffence on a pair of Audio Note and my own Klipsch RB61. But I was not alone in have a beginning headache after 30 min. of listening to really expensive systems with that clinical sound I described before. And It gave me no musical enjoyment. Off cause I know there is good remastered Reissues 180 Gr. LP's but like this thread started out with, I too can't see what the fuss is about, I like those old LP's with all that comes with them of little pops and, like I said, most sounds really good you can't hear the surfacenoise when the music is playing. I have rediscovered vinyl a few years ago after listing to a rotel /Denon TT setup at someones house. In a private livingroom with a so called "modest" hi-fi it suddenly moved me and I could hear the wonders of vinyl in a way the high-end setups at shows couldn't. I attented these show in the first place to listen to tube amps. And what convinced me about getting tubes was a power amp at around 2000 £. My own cost around 1200£ 3 years ago. And about knowing about hi-fi magazines and so on. At the age of 20 I was a beerdrinking weed smoking metalhead who used my time and money on concerts, close, records and parties. I'm older, wiser (on some things ) and only smoke tobacco (oh my.. political uncorrect ) and drink coffe now . People change you know, we haven't all been fullbread audiophiles your hole life. And besides, I am from the "CD generation" you might say. And I hope that a lot of people from the "MP3 generation" will find the wonders of good hi-fi when they (like me) get's older and think of other things than instent (musical) enjoyment.
And now I'll end this and go in and put on my newly bought Blue Note 68' LP "Elegant soul" with Gene Harris. It got a fair amount of scratches but man, can he play, it's just cooking and that's what's it's all about for me It's sunday, so I'll slap on my Grado RS 1, and yes they do sound better than the Goldrings I use at the computer

[springer]

In the mid 80`s vinyl cost around £5.45 in Our price,i think? so 30 year`s on increase in price £25 not bad.

7" / 10" / 12" singles or 140g / 180g / 200g albums, new or second hand i don`t care, to know vinyl is out selling CD`s great!!!

LONG LIVE VINYL

It's not outselling CDs, but it is the only format INCREASING its sales.

[Audio_Man]

Vinyl and tube Dude. You are clearly aware of quality differences yet continued to dismiss their relevance to improved vinyl replay which confused me. I do agree with you about silly priced cables and other accessories. Differences in cables, supports and such things is more system dependent than price dependent once you get above a basic quality level. As for hi-end systems on show dems, they more often sound bad because they pair all the most revealing and expensive components together (limited to those the exhibitor markets) without thought for the final sound. They end up with a overly detailed and brightly lit sound without paying enough attention to synergy and trying to emulate the musicality of a real live performance. Often less is more with correct component matching and attention to detail.

I am certainly not wedded to pristine new 180g pressings. Most of my collection is original vinyl either bought in the day or purchased used. But I do not enjoy levels of surface noise that intrudes into the music or multiple scratches clicking away. Hence I confine myself to at least EX+ pressings. Unfortunately the dishonesty and ignorance of sellers and shrinking availability of desirable music on pristine vinyl cries out for more reissues being made available. Most of my recent purchases are therefore new titles or quality 180g reissues.