?Good cart. for Dual 1210 in an old E'home console

[jc3]

Hey guys/girls... just bought an awesome old Electrohome Circa 703 stereo (some pics here -> http://electrohomecirca75.blogspot.com/ ... a.html?m=1). It came with the original turntable - a Dual 1210. It was a bit grungy as you can see from the linked photos, so the first thing I did was to take the TT out and give it a good cleaning. Made sure things were not stuck/broken, powered it up and gave it a try. Everything worked like a charm! About a minute into Sinatra's World on a String, the squealing started. After doing some forum searching herr, I decided it was either the idler wheel or motor bushings that needed lube. Lubed them up and now it works perfectly - so thanks for that!

Now to the question. There are all kinds of cartridges available, and people seem to not recommend ceramic carts for these (why is this?). But, in any case - this TT has the original Electrohome astatic cart., and id like to upgrade (it's fairly loud through the empty space between tracks, *very* bass-y, and kinda 'tiney'). So - what would be a good replacement (less than $100-200) for the original cartridge on this turntable? Sorry if this Q has been asked before, but couldn't find a specific enough answer by searching.

[Hugues TR4]

Hi jc3,
Dual usually recommended the use of Shure carts.
Why don't you try their current very nice M-97xE model. Not too expensive (around 100 $) and beautiful sounding. Just fitted one on my 1019 and it really boosted my old '60ies TT (Shure M-75 MGD): couldn't recognize it!
Good luck with your new toy!

Cheers,

Hugh.

[josephazannieri]

Yo jc3:

If this unit has a ceramic cartridge, the firts thing I would do is check and be sure that it will take a nmagnetic cartridge. You will need to look underneathy arm and chack to see how present cartridge is mounted. If it is a clip job, and does not have screws that are about 1/2 inch apart that hold cart or clip in, you may not be able to get a magnetic cartridge to fit it, unless you are willing to drill holes in the head.

Second, the M97, which is a nice cart, may not be suitable. I would recommend an SC35, becasue it tracks in the 3 gram range that is probably right for this changer, and it may not operate properly unless tracked in that range. Also you need to be sure that you can get the proper tracking force with this changer. If there is no adjustment for tracking force, you may not be able to make the new cartridge, which is likely heavier than the original ceraminc cartridge, work properly.

You will need to find out a little more about this changer so you can get the cartridge mounted properly, and the stylus pressure adjusted.

Also, if you substitute a magnetic cartridge, you will need to buy a small preamplifier to raise its level to be acceptable to the ceramic phono input. Ceramic cart has about .3 volt output, and magnetic cart has about .004 volt output, about a hundred times less. Also, the magnetic cart wil need to be equalized to work properly, and equalization will include about a 20 dB bass boost, which is huge. You may find that you will get acoustic feedback in low frequencies if you try to play loud. You can get a little more treble by shunting the input to amp with a 500 K ohm 1/4 or 1/2 watt resistor. That will help get rid of your excessive bass. Start with 500 K and increase value of resistor until the sound suits you.

Changing carts is not an easy job in this unit, snce it was designed especially for use in this application. BE CAREFUL! Any further questions, I or others will answer.

And good luck from that cautious old guy,

Joe Z.

[jc3]

Many thanks guys!

So a bit of additional information. The cartridge fits into a removable portion of the tip of the tone arm (sorry, not home for a couple days or I'd take photos). The cart is held to the removable portion by 2 screws located approximately 1/2" or so apart (and has teh standard 4 pin arrangement), and the tone arm does have an adjustment for tracking force. Hope this helps clarify things a bit. I will take a look at the Shure cartridge that was recommended as well. Many thanks!

Edit: Oh, and would prefer not to preamp. So, do I need to source a ceramic cartridge to replace this one with? If so, what are some good options in the 100-200 dollar range?

[josephazannieri]

Yo jc3:

If you don't weant to use a preamp, you will need a ceramic cart. This rules out Shure M97 and Shure SC35. If you want to use a ceramic cartridge, and you want high performance, you may have to go with a good vintage cart. My suggestion for a good ceramic stereo cart would be a Sonotone 9TAF-HC. You will probably have to go to Ebay to find one, and it may cost you some. You can also check Needle Doctor for ceramic stereo carts. 9TAF-HC is a relatively high compliance, good sounding wide range stereo ceramic cart. As I recall, tracks about 2 1/2 grams.

You will need a high output cart with an a output of at least .3 volt to work with the ceramic input on your Electrohome. Astatic cart has output in the area of between .5 volt per channel for 13T and about 1 volt for 81T and 89T mono carts. But it might be another Astatic that I am not familiar with. Most of these commercial consoles have ceramic cartridges, and the Astatic is most likely a ceramic. Don't think Astatic made magnetics. Just out of curiosity what is the cart number? is it an 81T, an 89T, or a 13T? Is this console mono or stereo? I can't tell by looking at it.

And good luck from that unseeing old guy, who knows nothing,

Joe Z.

[Alec124c41]

BTW a small phono pre-amp can be concealed inside the console very easily.
http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc400pp.html

Cheers,
Alec

[gg383]

I was looking at the 1210 manual and the pics of it on the site you included. I'm not the expert but it seems to me that you have a ceramic cartridge unit. The tonearm is a little bulky looking, like an old portable record player. It does have a knob on the back of the tonearm to balance it and a dial setting on the side of the tonearm for setting the tracking force. Right about where your Dual badge is there should be another round dial to set the anti skate, none there tho! Without that you will have to use a ceramic replacement cartridge, or a new stylus if you can find one. Ceramic cartridges ride heavy in the groove and usually use sapphire needles that chew the records up faster and they don't last as long as diamond needles do. I noticed one other thing if you get to thinking about replacing it with another newer Dual. From the pics I could only see 1 transport screw on the front of the deck to the right of center of the platter. There should be another in the rear, to the left of center of the turntable, but there was not a shot I could see of this. I have seen mounting like this on 1019's I think, but when you get into the 70's 1229 or 510 and later models they used a 3 point transport screw system with front & back ones to the left of center on the platter and the 3'rd one by the middle of the tonearm. Just something I wanted you to know about before you go to e-bay and get another one to slap in and it wont mount in your unit!! Very cool design tho, it's got The Jetson's written all over it!!!!!! I hope this helped you a little bit & good luck with your system!! Glenn.

[jc3]

BTW a small phono pre-amp can be concealed inside the console very easily.
http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc400pp.html

Cheers,
Alec

Wow - that's pretty inexpensive. So this will bring the output of low-output cartridges up to where they will work with my old system? This unit will not add significant noise to the output? That looks like it may be a great solution.

I will look up the cartridge number and take a snap when I get home in a day or two. Thanks everyone for all of the great help and advice -much appreciated!

[josephazannieri]

Yo jc3:

Alec's suggested preamp will work, but it may take some wiring, or rewiring, and maybe some soldering. Pictures will help. I am scared that this thing may require some work to get a magnetic cart to hook up and work in it. You will need to go inside your machine and see where and how the present phono connects to the unit. There will be a place where present phono hooks to present amp. You will have to see if the present phono goes to an RCA jack, or if it goes to some other set of wires that are the input wire to the receiver-amplifier portion of set. You may find a set of jacks labelled "phono" and "FM", "AM" and "aux," and maybe "tape". These will be inputs to receiver or amp and will correspond to the listed sources on amp's input control. You may also find that there are just wires from each source that go into the amp and the sound then comes out and you will have to find the wires from your phonograph and hook in the new cartridge and rewire the phonograph to take the new cartridge and hook the new cartridge and preamp up properly. You will need to trace out the circuit and be sure that you are hooked up right. This may take some help if you are not familiar with audio wiring.

This thing looks cool, but you will have to do some work if you want to modify it to take a modern magnetic cartridge. And good luck from the old cartridge changer and rewirer,

Joe Z.

[jc3]

When I took the turntable out to clean it and to lube the bearings (they were squealers), I was able to disconnect the TT quite easily because of the RCA type jacks. The main power and ground to the TT is supplied by a separate plastic connector.

Not sure where to find the numbers on the cartridge that you asked about - on one side it says 906, on the other side, "astatic", and on the bottom it says N665D on one side and something 83D on the other. I'm not averse to a bit of soldering, and know my way around a modern stereo quite well - turntable stuff is just pretty new to me (other than the one I had way back in the day - but I didn't do any mods to that one...). Again, thanks for all the help!

Edit: Are there additional numbers on the top of the cartridge? Should I dismount it from the carrier and see what other info might be there?

[josephazannieri]

Yo jc3:

If turntable connects by RCA cables then you are in good shape. Just plug turntable into inputs of the little preamp suggested by Alec, and then get some short (12 inch) RCA male to RCA male extensions and plug them into outputs of preamp and RCA jacks where phono was formerly connected. If you have a ground wire from turntable it is probably connected already, through the plastic plug that you described.

This unit will not be HIFI, but it will probably sound OK. If sound is too bassy you can put a capacitor in series with phono input on recever and use that to roll off the low end a little, or maybe just use your tone controls. Usually, straight up position of tone control is close to flat, but might be different for your unit, and also, there may be a frequency contouring network on volume control or elsewhere in unit. You will just have to scope it out. Years ago, I modified a Zenith table radio to add highs to the sound by modifying the contouring network, and cleaned up sound considerably. This unit will be prime for a few small modifications like that to make it sound better.

I think the N665 designation applies to stylus rather than cartridge. Usually, "D" designation means that stylus is diamond, as opposed to "S" for sapphire. You might try Googling the N665 designation, and the 906 designation, and the 83D designation. Also, it might be worth your while to dismount cartridge completely, and if there is a clip that holds it, take the clip off. You might find a manufacturer's model number.

Where are speakers? Are they in the bottom of cabinel and pointing down? This may be the reason they are muffled. Also, if there is a tweeter or midrange speaker, it may not be operating properly and need replacement. If this is so, then it is probably an easily obtained inexpensive phenolic ring tweeter or some sort of inexpensive cone driver. I don't think this unit has a hugely expensive speaker system, so repairs and modifications will be easy and noncritical. The one problem I foresee with a magnetic cart is the possibility of acoustic feedback at low frequencies cause by the 20 dB additional low frequency gain from preamp, and additional bass caused by improved low frequency response of magnetic cart, combined with placement of speakers in the same box as phonograph. Many years ago, I replaced the ceramic cartridge in a Califone record player with a Shure M44 and inexpensive preamp and lows increased considerably, even with open back speakers.

And good luck from the old modifier and improviser,

Joe Z.

[jc3]

Thanks Joe!

It has only a single 8" driver in the cabinet, and it does point down - one of the reasons for muffled sound for sure. When I hook the stereo up to my Bose 901's it sounds MUCH better. I am thinking I will look for either a pair of Grundig Audioramas or a pair of the JVC Nivico ball speakers for it, and there is a push button to turn off the internal speaker. It is stereo, and has balance controls and external outputs for left and right channels.

Okay then, I think I will go ahead and order the pre-amp that was linked and the Shure M-97xe. I may need help with additional electronics if I need to add resistors, etc. Many thanks for the help everyone!

[BrianMcAllister]

I would hold off on ordering the preamp. I strongly suspect that you already have a magnetic cartridge in there. The Astatic N665 Stylus crosses to a Shure N91E stylus for a M91E cartridge. Astatic also marketed Shure Magnetic cartridges. You should post a picture of the existing cartridge, so we can see it.

[jc3]

Okay - so it turns out that the cartridge is an astatic 183D. It does *not* have the standard 4 pins coming out of the back, but has the dual style 'snap in' type connector. So I still plan on going with the Shure M97Xe, but I need some kind of adapter to get the cartridge to fit into the 1210 headshell. I am not averse to soldering in a new connector that will mate with the Shure, or using some kind of adapter if there is one readily available. What do you guys recommend?