Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

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jayk
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Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 08 Dec 2019 17:16

I've been working on getting a 1229 back in working condition. The last piece that I've been struggling with for a week is getting the start-lever to initiate cam movement and stop play. For a brief period everything worked perfectly, the movement of the main lever is fine, the steurpimple is fine, the tonearm moves unrestricted. If I move the tonearm to record end by hand it triggers the shut-off lever and returns correctly to the rest.

However, if I move the start-lever to "Start" the start-bracket slides into place with a nice click but the shut-off lever doesn't rotate enough to come in contact with the gears to start cam movement. From above without the platter I can see that it sometimes will budge a mm or two when i move the start-lever but not enough.

Now here's the trick, one of the issues I discovered early on was that the arm of the shut-off lever was bent up about 1cm in a curve. As-if somebody had rotated the cam backwards and it bent out of the way. The whole assembly with the friction plate was also loose and was free to move up, down, left and right without restriction. So I removed the cam wheel and all the stuff around it (fun) and straightened out the shut-off lever and was able to push the tiny pin back into place to hold the whole shut-off lever / friction plate assembly in place securely. I re-assembled it with hope put the platter back on and switched the lever to Start, and nothing. Still doesn't initiate cam movement. But I can hear a tiny ping as the platter rotates that I assume is the arm of the friction plate or shut-off lever just barely hitting the gears.

Compared to my 1219 (which works, mostly) it seems like movement of the start-bracket is correct. I'm guessing it isn't making proper contact with the shut-off lever. Or the shut-off lever needs to be oiled/greased. Or the small bends left in it after I straightened the shut-off lever are causing it to be just a tiny bit off. Any ideas? Is it the arm of the shut-off lever that contacts the teeth or the finger of the friction plate that contacts the little nub above the teeth that starts rotation of the cam wheel?

I might order a new cam-wheel just to try it but it will be torture waiting for it.

Thanks for any help.

jayk
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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 08 Dec 2019 18:45

Rather "nothing", I should have said the motor turns on and everything clicks into place, but no cam movement. Once as an experiment I bent the shut-off lever back into a similar curved shape and it was able to engage the cam. This doesn't seem right though, something else must be off.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 07:35

Followed the directions for cleaning/lubing/greasing cam on dualcan's website and amazingly it seems to be (mostly) working! Took about 1 hour to disassemble and reassemble this time so guess I'm getting better at it. Still not perfect though, have to hold start lever on Start or Stop for a couple revolutions every once in a while before cam engages.

And it's doing this weird thing where the needle sets down and then pulls off to the right until it falls off the record. One thing at a time... We'll see if the mousetrap is still shakily assembled in the morning.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by Hugues TR4 » 09 Dec 2019 09:28

Have you disassembled the "grooved shaft" #192 and the complete lever assembly around it (#195, 198)? It usually gets partially blocked by old grease which can become as hard as glue.
I always take it out, clean and polish it before re-assembling with a bit of sticky chain saw oil. Do not forget to clean the levers as well with alcool, as different chemicals might clash and block the whole mechanism.
For the needle set down, follow Dualcan's instructions re: redressing the "paddle" of the main lever #184 with some 150 grit sandpaper and add a tiny smear of Alvania grease with your finger. Change the steuerpimpel (guide #229).
Then do all the adjustments as on the Service Manual. That should solve the problem.
Hope this can be of help to you.
Good luck.
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 13:55

Hi, yes I did disassemble that entire mechanism, clean, and reinstall after cleaning the cam. I actually couldn't find a way to take out the cam without disassembling since everything is linked together.

I remembered after posting last night that I had removed part 212 "Locking Slide Complete" because I identified it as the cause of failure to enter start mode. After the cam follower moved into start position the little tab flipped it back to stop position. Re-checked the service manual and found the blurb about "adjusting the spring" so finally felt justified in bending it a tiny bit to avoid the cam follower nub. I hoped this would put extra tension on the mechanism and stop it from pulling hard to the right, but no luck.

Listening to a record now for the first time in weeks on the 1229! But have to stay vigilant to stop at the end or it will skip back a track before initiating stop cycle.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by Hugues TR4 » 09 Dec 2019 14:55

Hi Jayk,

Have you serviced the main cam completely as per the above sticky "Servicing Dual turntables", chapter "Cam and cycling problems"? It is not unusual that lever #207 doesn't flip freely because of the tiny #166 spring disengaged or missing…
Also check the good working of #161, 162 and 163 and service as in the sticky.
I remember having had a problem about the start/stop on a table because of the adjustment described on the Fig.28. Check that too.
For the rest, you are happy enough to be able to compare with the very similar 1219, which works properly you said.
So difficult to work on a TT at such a distance. Also, please use the parts numbers when describing an issue. Much easier to try and figure out things.
Keep us informed of your progress,
Cheers,
Hugh

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 15:02

It's possible I forgot the most obvious "repair" on a turntable. After all the work on the table and flipping it up and down it seems the tonearm needed to be re-balanced. Balanced it and set tracking and it lands on the record fine now but still skips back half a track at record end and repeats.

I will check the sticky, is it the same as the instructions here? https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pd5wo3xnr8fc ... s.pdf?dl=0

If so, yes, I did. There was a lot of gunk in one of the tracks for the friction plate, i think cleaning that out got it working as well as it is. I may just be happy that all I have to do is hold the lever for a second to get it to start and stop :) My 701 is the same way.

This part of the 1219 works, it has other problems and I haven't been able to look yet because I've stuck on the 1229.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by Hugues TR4 » 09 Dec 2019 15:47

Yes it is.
The #207 should flip with a tiny "click" feeling.
It is quite normal to have to hold the start lever for a second before the platter starts to spin, same with the stop.
For the other issue, check the adjusting sleeve #200 and its upper pimpel, also check the tonearm height adjustments (fig.15 and 17).
Just thinking out loud…
Cheers,
Hugh

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 16:10

OK will check. One thing I've always noticed on this 1229 is that the tonearm has a very strong pull towards the rest from any point on the record. It's like the anti-skate is set at a very high value even when it is 0. Looking at underside of the table I've noticed that the white anti-skate "curve washer" part 258 is cracked. It still rotates and I can see the spring extending as-if the anti-skate is working. Maybe the crack magnifies anti-skate? Any other reasons the arm could be pulled strongly towards the arm rest? The manual says to make sure the wires aren't too tight, I don't see or feel any issues with the wires.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 17:14

False alarm, I hadn't checked the strong pull towards rest since re-balancing the arm, it doesn't do it now. With anti-skate at 0 will pretty much stay where I put it.

I tried adjusting part 253, the shut-off slide, using the eccentric screw so that it initiates the stop cycle earlier in the runout groove before the arm skips back but apparently the eccentric screw doesn't have the range I would need.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 18:26

After staring at it for a while I think what is happening is the friction plate, part 163, has too much friction. When the shut-off slide taps it the slide deflects to the side and sort of twists while barely budging the friction plate. The twist is what I perceive as the arm jumping back half a cm. I'm hesitant to open the thing back up though for fear of my original problem with starting cam movement returns.

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by Hugues TR4 » 09 Dec 2019 19:28

Unfortunately, my 1229 is now sitting permanently in its cabinet with her brothers and sisters (amp, cassette player,
Thorens TD146, etc...) and it's a PITA to dig her out from there.
If I find time tomorrow, I will try and get one of my 1219 off her plinth and have a look at her "dessous" to figure out your issues.
If your original issue has been cured, there is no reason why it should be coming up again.
See you tomorrow,
Cheers,
Hugh

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 21:34

Good news, you don't have to disturb your 1219 (until maybe I get into my 1219). I doubt I will win any engineering awards for this one, but I took my little screwdriver and pried up very lightly on the friction plate (163) and shut-off lever (162) in order to minutely loosen 161. Now the friction plate glides smoothly under the shut-off lever. Auto-start works, auto-stop works, arm picked up and moved back to rest at end of record with a symphony of clicks and springs. Listening to a side of Elvis Costello now to see if it will work without me hovering over it (this is usually when it fails, once I relax). Then putting this thing back in it's plinth. 1249, 701, 1229 down, 1219 to go. The 1019 works every time without me touching it.

Edit : Arrggghh... with confidence I reinstalled it in the plinth, hit start, and now it auto-starts, lifts arm and puts it back on the arm rest then repeats stop cycle forever. Gonna assume it's too loose now. At least the stop at end of record works now :)

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by Hugues TR4 » 09 Dec 2019 22:20

Fabulous! Congrats!
Another 1229 back to work again!
Did you follow all the steps described in the "Cam and cycling problems"? Including the "tiny droplets" on Fig. 15 and 16?
These are precious tips from Dualcan. All the cams I've been servicing this way (about fifteen of them) are now still working like new.
Enjoy your new status of Dual Engineer!
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1229 Auto-Start and Shut-off Lever

Post by jayk » 09 Dec 2019 22:23

Ha, almost. New problem described above once I truly relaxed.

I did follow to the best of my abilities. Except I couldn't get the little c-clamp off and due to my original problem the little pin was already pulled out of the cam. So I wasn't able to disassemble 161, 162, 163 the same way he describes. I disassembled the opposite way. Pretty sure when I pushed it all back into the cam I sandwiched it all together too tightly. Then probably loosened it too much so now there is practically no friction.

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