Michael Fremer Slaps Down The Technics Sl-1200

[KentT]

I have owned more than my share of turntables and tonearms. Among them belt driven, idler driven, and direct driven. I have had good and bad in all 3 systems. Now, I don't own a Walker. Or something in that class. But at least one Walker owner after hearing a tweaked out SP-10 traded in his Walker. My favorite dream turntable actually is a Garrard 301 or 401. I own a Technics SP-25 (the broadcast market version on Steroids which lives in broadcast desks). If it sounds good, it is good. I am unbiased. I have owned more than one type of turntable drive system. And these days, especially have rediscovered idler drives properly fettled. So, I have an open mind.

[rewfew]

What makes the technics 1200 so unique I think was it's longevity based on it's state of the art design! Design of the 1970's admittedly. But what envelope is being pushed today? Rim drive turntables? Belt drive? Hardly any step forward, I think. Today's afore mentioned tables seem to have no more specifications than their sheer weight. Wow & flutter and rumble and speed accuracy aren't important enough to mention any more? Or do they not meet the standards of a design some 30 years old. The fact that Technics could, with it's economy of scale make this technology so affordable to so many, I think, is a testament to the validity of it's state of the art design. An audiophile sleeper if you will. I've had thousands of dollars left over to invest in music, not slabs of metal. Any way, I wonder how well one of these modern rubber band jobs would fare in doing this task.

[album]17717[/album]

[steve195527]

the guy talks a load of rubbish:-did he ever take up that $1m dollar challenge to hear difference between cables blind?

[avole]

i don't like audio magazines too ! Comparing turntables with cars can be silly too... From what i've read you're saying that technics sl-1200 is like a porsche cayenne ( very good off road and fast as a roadster ) what about the price ? Is the porsche overpriced or is the thecnics a bargain ? Silly isn't it ? I'm not convinced . IMHO the technics sl-1200 will always be a table for professionals even if wow and flutter specs are very low . But a good table isn't only "made" of "wows and flutters" or the most of us better throw away our tables !

You've totally misunderstood.

[covalongacurta]

What makes the technics 1200 so unique I think was it's longevity based on it's state of the art design! Design of the 1970's admittedly. But what envelope is being pushed today? Rim drive turntables? Belt drive? Hardly any step forward, I think. Today's afore mentioned tables seem to have no more specifications than their sheer weight. Wow & flutter and rumble and speed accuracy aren't important enough to mention any more? Or do they not meet the standards of a design some 30 years old. The fact that Technics could, with it's economy of scale make this technology so affordable to so many, I think, is a testament to the validity of it's state of the art design. An audiophile sleeper if you will. I've had thousands of dollars left over to invest in music, not slabs of metal. Any way, I wonder how well one of these modern rubber band jobs would fare in doing this task.

[album]17717[/album]

how does a record sound recorded on that cutter ?

[cafe latte]

I am one of the more Technics interested persons on the forum, but what is all the revival of old Technics threads??
Just to add though Micheal Fremer spends his days listening to 20 grand TT's and I am suprised he subjected his ears to the likes of a Technics at all. Will he ever be the same again

[covalongacurta]

This thing with self-proclaimed experts hating on the SL-1200 is getting really old. I use them both at home and for work (with different pick-ups, obviously) and you only hear these wows and jitters if you want to.

What I really think: The Technics SL-1200 Mk II is so good that professionals adopted it for their uses.

What 'they' really think (even if they don't say it): Because professionals use it, it must be bad.

P.S. I live in an old house and the SL-1200 is the only record player I can use without worrying about skipping and vibrations when I walk around. And the sound is good. What options do I have, really, but to like it?

skipping depends on the stylus , tracking force ,anti-skating , records, arm rest etc . It also depends if the table is leveled or not. it doesn't depend on the table ! What does an sl-1200 have so special to avoid skipping that other tables don't have ?

[nat]

The indignation level in this thread is pretty high. As has been pointed out, the SL 1200 was originally a home audio table. It was a step down from the professional radio station tables like the SP 10, so it was more affordable, and since it had an integrated arm, regular people could buy it and use it easily. The reason DJs took it up had to do with direct drives being able to be spun backwards for scratching(something idlers can't do, and belt drives are unlikely to survive), the quick regaining of correct speed that the 1200 has, the fixed suspension (you can't scratch on a suspended subchasis table), and the mechanical stoutness of the 1200 -- not all tables can take that amount of abuse.
Once DJs took it up and it became popular, its being the pro forma DJ standard meant that new DJs got them, not because they actually compared them with other tables and found the others worse, but simply because it was the normal table, reliable, available, and remarkably inexpensive for its quality (this was particularly the case as the high quality competition disappeared).
Certainly the subjective press was in love with belt drives (and at least intially, with high compliance cartridges, for which the 1200s arm was not ideal) when the 1200 first came out, but its been decades since 'those magazines' have acknowledged the 1200 as a very capable table -- Ken Kessler gave it a big smooch in a cover article in HiFi News and Record Review long long ago.
People have different tastes, and turntables are very interactive components, and so some people like them, and some people don't. There are perfectly good reasons for both opinions. Fremer is entitled to his opinion, too. The sorts of arms and cartridges he wants to use have bearing on his opinion also, and the fixed arm can be a problem for some people who want to use something else. Can he hear cogging? I don't know. But if I can't , then I don't need to worry about buying a bazillion dollar table, and that's a good thing.

[avole]

skipping depends on the stylus , tracking force ,anti-skating , records, arm rest etc . It also depends if the table is leveled or not. it doesn't depend on the table ! What does an sl-1200 have so special to avoid skipping that other tables don't have ?

It does depend on the table, actually, and how well they absorb external vibration. Put two turntables on the same support on an old wooden floor and start jumping up and down and wandering around.You'll soon learn which one controls the vibrations caused by your movement better.

[covalongacurta]

skipping depends on the stylus , tracking force ,anti-skating , records, arm rest etc . It also depends if the table is leveled or not. it doesn't depend on the table ! What does an sl-1200 have so special to avoid skipping that other tables don't have ?

It does depend on the table, actually, and how well they absorb external vibration. Put two turntables on the same support on an old wooden floor and start jumping up and down and wandering around.You'll soon learn which one controls the vibrations caused by your movement better.

ok bring me a dj cart (high tracking force ) to put on my table and bring an elephant to dance in my room ! I mean there are good tables out there ! The most of turntables around the globe are technics everybody loves them even those who know nothing about tt's ! Do you let me be the minority ?

[covalongacurta]

good luck !

[avole]

ok bring me a dj cart (high tracking force ) to put on my table and bring an elephant to dance in my room ! I mean there are good tables out there ! The most of turntables around the globe are technics everybody loves them even those who know nothing about tt's ! Do you let me be the minority ?

You obviously haven't lived in an old house with springy wooden floors!

No need to get upset. I didn't even mention Technics in the example. In my case it was a Rega P2 which jumped at the softest footstep, and my CJ55 , a suspended deck, which didn't. You need neither elephants nor DJ cartridges, just old wooden floors.

[Lauri3000]

skipping depends on the stylus , tracking force ,anti-skating , records, arm rest etc . It also depends if the table is leveled or not. it doesn't depend on the table ! What does an sl-1200 have so special to avoid skipping that other tables don't have ?

It does depend on the table, actually, and how well they absorb external vibration. Put two turntables on the same support on an old wooden floor and start jumping up and down and wandering around.You'll soon learn which one controls the vibrations caused by your movement better.

ok bring me a dj cart (high tracking force ) to put on my table and bring an elephant to dance in my room !

You don't need a DJ cart for that. I've used a Shure M97Xe with tracking force set to 1 gram with an SL-1200 Mk II at home and I could jump up and down right next to it without any audible effect. And no, I didn't try it on purpose, I found out by accident when I took a tumble and then tried it on purpose. With other turntables, I couldn't walk around in the same room without the system flying all over the place - even with an Ortofon Concorde Pro S set to track at 4 grams.

There's also a lot of hate for the M97Xe nowadays because it's made in Mexico. At least that's the only reasoning I've seen on why many people apparently considered it to be an OK cart but don't any more. EDIT: I don't use the M97Xe as my main system these days but I tried it out because a lot of people do use it with an SL-1200 and claim it to be a good fit.

[covalongacurta]

skipping depends on the stylus , tracking force ,anti-skating , records, arm rest etc . It also depends if the table is leveled or not. it doesn't depend on the table ! What does an sl-1200 have so special to avoid skipping that other tables don't have ?

It does depend on the table, actually, and how well they absorb external vibration. Put two turntables on the same support on an old wooden floor and start jumping up and down and wandering around.You'll soon learn which one controls the vibrations caused by your movement better.

ok bring me a dj cart (high tracking force ) to put on my table and bring an elephant to dance in my room !

You don't need a DJ cart for that. I've used a Shure M97Xe with tracking force set to 1 gram with an SL-1200 Mk II at home and I could jump up and down right next to it without any audible effect. And no, I didn't try it on purpose, I found out by accident when I took a tumble and then tried it on purpose. With other turntables, I couldn't walk around in the same room without the system flying all over the place - even with an Ortofon Concorde Pro S set to track at 4 grams.

There's also a lot of hate for the M97Xe nowadays because it's made in Mexico. At least that's the only reasoning I've seen on why many people apparently considered it to be an OK cart but don't any more. EDIT: I don't use the M97Xe as my main system these days but I tried it out because a lot of people do use it with an SL-1200 and claim it to be a good fit.