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Global Warming: United Nations Meeting In Copenhagen

anything and nothing

Postby midfi » 10 Dec 2009 09:33

I am not in the global warming camp. There are exceptions to everything. I'm quite sure that bright yellow ball up in the sky has more to do with the warming of the earth than we do. Not saying that you are Kamyl but I am not arrogant enough to the point that I think I can control the earth or the weather in any way shape or form. The plant life needs us for C02, its their food, they can't live without it. We give them C02, they give us air, it's that simple. I'm not a Nuclear bomb proponent but I came across this, remember that the areas that were used for test sites were said to be uninhabital due to radiation for at least 100 years by "scientist" of the day, well i scrubbed this up:

The IAEA's Bikini Advisory Group preliminary findings issued in 1996 contain the following statements with regard to background radiation on Bikini:

"It is safe to walk on all of the islands...The Advisory Group reaffirmed: although the residual radioactivity on islands in Bikini Atoll is still higher than on other atolls in the Marshall islands, it is not hazardous to health at the levels measured. Indeed, there are many places in the world where people have been living for generations with higher levels of radioactivity from natural sources - such as the geological surroundings and the sun - than there is now on Bikini Atoll...By all internationally agreed scientific and medical criteria...the air, the land surface, the lagoon water and the drinking water are all safe. There is no radiological risk in visiting the lagoon or the islands. The nuclear weapon tests have left practically no cesium in marine life. The cesium deposited in the lagoon was dispersed in the ocean long ago.

Sorry to be so looong but here's a rip from the liberal rag the boston globe:

THE STARK headline appeared just over a year ago. "2007 to be 'warmest on record,' " BBC News reported on Jan. 4, 2007. Citing experts in the British government's Meteorological Office, the story announced that "the world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007," surpassing the all-time high reached in 1998.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the planetary hot flash: Much of the planet grew bitterly cold.

In South America, for example, the start of winter last year was one of the coldest ever observed. According to Eugenio Hackbart, chief meteorologist of the MetSul Weather Center in Brazil, "a brutal cold wave brought record low temperatures, widespread frost, snow, and major energy disruption." In Buenos Aires, it snowed for the first time in 89 years, while in Peru the cold was so intense that hundreds of people died and the government declared a state of emergency in 14 of the country's 24 provinces. In August, Chile's agriculture minister lamented "the toughest winter we have seen in the past 50 years," which caused losses of at least $200 million in destroyed crops and livestock.

Latin Americans weren't the only ones shivering.

University of Oklahoma geophysicist David Deming, a specialist in temperature and heat flow, notes in the Washington Times that "unexpected bitter cold swept the entire Southern Hemisphere in 2007." Johannesburg experienced its first significant snowfall in a quarter-century. Australia had its coldest ever June. New Zealand's vineyards lost much of their 2007 harvest when spring temperatures dropped to record lows.

Closer to home, 44.5 inches of snow fell in New Hampshire last month, breaking the previous record of 43 inches, set in 1876. And the Canadian government is forecasting the coldest winter in 15 years.

Now all of these may be short-lived weather anomalies, mere blips in the path of the global climatic warming that Al Gore and a host of alarmists proclaim the deadliest threat we face. But what if the frigid conditions that have caused so much distress in recent months signal an impending era of global cooling?

"Stock up on fur coats and felt boots!" advises Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and senior scientist at Moscow's Shirshov Institute of Oceanography. "The latest data . . . say that earth has passed the peak of its warmer period, and a fairly cold spell will set in quite soon, by 2012."

Sorokhtin dismisses the conventional global warming theory that greenhouse gases, especially human-emitted carbon dioxide, is causing the earth to grow hotter. Like a number of other scientists, he points to solar activity - sunspots and solar flares, which wax and wane over time - as having the greatest effect on climate.

"Carbon dioxide is not to blame for global climate change," Sorokhtin writes in an essay for Novosti. "Solar activity is many times more powerful than the energy produced by the whole of humankind." In a recent paper for the Danish National Space Center, physicists Henrik Svensmark and Eigil Friis-Christensen concur: "The sun . . . appears to be the main forcing agent in global climate change," they write.

IMO global warming is a hoax to impose cap and tax on the masses. Do I want clean water and air? of course. We can control that! But I refuse to try to play God and think I have the audacity to even dream that we/I/you can control the weather. We are no good at playing God. #1 reason is we are no good at it and #2, the job is already taken :!:
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Postby midfi » 10 Dec 2009 09:35

how many are you are old enough to remember this one...

http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm
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Postby JaS » 10 Dec 2009 10:12

midfi wrote:I'm quite sure that bright yellow ball up in the sky has more to do with the warming of the earth than we do. Not saying that you are Kamyl but I am not arrogant enough to the point that I think I can control the earth or the weather in any way shape or form.

Surely it's arrogance to claim that your gut reaction has more weight than the mass of scientific evidence :wink: Pumping billions of tonnes of C02 into the atmosphere is not 'tinkering' with the weather system, it's been shown to be the most likely cause of global warming and while it's impossible to predict the outcome accurately, there is evidence of what happened last time C02 levels increased. However, it didn't happen as fast as the man made increase so who knows how bad it will get and how fast ?) Maybe it's time to abort the great C02 experiment?

IMO global warming is a hoax to impose cap and tax on the masses

Unfortunately that seems to be the basis of the entire argument against global warming and climate change being man's fault - it's an ideological one and the scientific evidence supporting it is sketchy at best, and fraudulent at worst. There has been more than one example of dodgy science cited in this thread (graphs proving cooling, C02 from volcanoes) that have already been proven to be false but are still wheeled out to support the Hoax claim.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't question the motives and the science, but the claims of it being a Hoax are quite frankly ridiculous :(

The urgent need to reduce C02 is to protect the world's poor from the climate change we are imposing on them. Ideologically I support this aim (that's my bias admitted) but after following both sides claims very carefully for many years the science is solid.

Regards,
JaS
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Postby JaS » 10 Dec 2009 17:53

At that time all the talk was about the world running out of oil too, again based on established scientific fact.

The last time I looked fossil fuels, and for that matter uranium, were still finite resources :wink: We may or may not have hit 'peak oil' yet but it isn't that far away.

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Postby bauzace50 » 10 Dec 2009 18:16

Jas,

an acquaintance of mine died one month ago with the mistaken idea that alcohol beverages have a finite inventory. He was keenlly intent on finishing ALL supplies of alcoholic beverages, but died without accepting the fact that supplies are easily renewable from many sources. There even are huge clouds (galactic size) of drinkable alcohol spread over the universe, as explained in a recent documentary on TV. I wonder if that's where tykes like this end up after local transit? It's alcohol heaven, and it may be one partial answer to "Where IS heaven? "

The opposite is true about fossil fuel...with a very finite amount waiting to be quickly terminated...and its burnt remains occupying unintended locations around this planet.

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Postby Bigears » 10 Dec 2009 18:40

Everyone is in the 'global warming camp'. Bar none. No exceptions. If you are a living, breathing, carbon-emitting human being then you are definitely part of global warming.

I know I am.


Good for you. I reiterate, I am NOT in that camp. There are, as many posters have stated, many more things going on in the atmosphere other than CO2. Mehtane is 10 times more powerful as a greenhouse gas, and water vapour is more serious as although short-lived, the cycle means there's more of it up there on a day to day basis.

There still is inconclusive evidence about warming. The ice cap retreat in Greenland has been over-hyped to disgraceful levels by those wishing to present half truths for their own agendas. I was fortunate enough to hear someone who lived in Greenland state that they wondered what all the fuss was about, because although the summer months saw a retreat of ice extend further in some areas, its actually doing the reverse in others!

If the ice caps are melting at the rates we're all mean to believe, where's the sea level rises? Datums have remained pretty stable in this country anyway for decades with shore and cliff erosion posing more of a threat.

Going back to an earlier point, the climate has changed and continues to do so, whether warming is to blame, well, the jury is still out on that whether we like that or not. CO" the culprit? No. I don't swallow that in its entirety anyway as it is one of a handful of warming gases and not the one we ought to worry most about. Floods on the increase? Yes, definitely, and no nation is doing enough to prepare for the fallout. Global warming to blame? Not proven. These things are happening and no sane person who has eyes and ears can deny that but please dont say emphatically as if its a fact that global warming is proven or is to blame as there's far more at work. Its a consequence in a complicated chain of events that scientists are simply trying to match theories to outcome, and thats not good science.
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Postby registeredla » 10 Dec 2009 18:58

What really burns me on this subject matter, is the way our politicians are going to control the carbon taxes.

As a Landscape Architect and a Nurseryman, with nursery production just under 400 acres. I will be forced to buy carbon tax credits if inacted. :shock: I grow the trees shrubs etc. that benefit and lockup CO2 in the soils. Even though the growing cycle can be 10 years on some rotation of plant materials, I can not get any tax credits. The credit only goes to the person that installs the material in it's final landscape position. Talk about BS! I average 500 trees per acre of production ground. Since we run equipment to plant, cultivate and harvest the plant material, I will be considered a polluter. :shock: I tried to enroll in the carbon tax credit bank and was told that since the plants are not in the ground long enough, I do not qualify. What a joke this whole political circus is. I try to help the planet and the environment, by growing landscape materials and I will have to buy carbon credits if inforced. This is going to be next muti-billion dollar a year industry.

I believe in helping to preserve the environment for our future generations. I just do not believe in our politicians. :(
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Postby Bigears » 10 Dec 2009 19:21

...perhaps we can bury the politicians instead and claim tax credits for burying all that hot air...the true cause of "global warming" :wink:
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Postby midfi » 10 Dec 2009 20:03

That doesn't mean you shouldn't question the motives and the science, but the claims of it being a Hoax are quite frankly ridiculous Sad

Then why the mass cover-up, dumping of info and docs, and moving data around to skirt the Freedom of Information act by these so called scientist.

Oh, and I'm quite sure everyone is aware of the 31,000+ scientist that say that man has no effect on global warming versus the 18,000 that say we do.
http://www.discovery.org/v/30

http://www.oism.org/pproject/

I think the galaxy is in constant flux and we are at its mercy. The earth has been completely under water at once, completely engulfed in flames, completely frozen, continental shifts, reversal of the magnetic poles, meteor bombardment, etc... I'm not going to do something stupid to like pour arsenic in the drinking water but on the other end I'm not going to go along with a group of people laying the foundation that I/we are a threat to something that has endured and recovered from more than we all could muster if we tried.
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Postby midfi » 10 Dec 2009 21:22

Bigears wrote:...perhaps we can bury the politicians instead and claim tax credits for burying all that hot air...the true cause of "global warming" :wink:


If you run on this platform, I will vote for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, wait a minute......................... :lol: :lol: :lol:



now thats just wrong on too many levels :!: :lol:
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Postby JaS » 10 Dec 2009 21:54

midfi wrote:Then why the mass cover-up, dumping of info and docs, and moving data around to skirt the Freedom of Information act by these so called scientist.

What mass cover up? That's just more conspiracy theory and distortion of the facts timed to undermine the conference. Have you actually read any of the leaked emails or what exactly was 'covered up'?

I'm not going to go along with a group of people laying the foundation that I/we are a threat to something that has endured and recovered from more than we all could muster if we tried.

What makes you think that's what's going on :?

If you followed the arguments you'd know that no one is trying to 'save the planet', they are trying to save the human race from the flooding, famine and war that will happen if the climate changes dramatically due to our actions. And no we haven't endured the temperature changes that may occur (especially if we've trigger the release of more C02 by increasing average temperatures). The human race has survived in a relatively stable climate and in it's current form you'd need to change very little to starve half the planet.

However, you're absolutely right that the planet will survive, after a fashion, no matter what we do to it. However, if we affect the atmosphere by increasing greenhouse gases beyond a certain limit, the human race will suffer.

Over the last couple of days I've been reading up on the latest from the sceptic camp and the most shocking thing I read was something along the lines of 'the human race has survived worse and it will survive this so we don't need to take action'. This is the same as saying 'screw our children and their children, I'm carrying on with the party and keeping the cash in my pocket'. I didn't find much convincing scientific evidence against climate change as 90% of what I found had already been shown to be false (doctored figures etc) or was out of date. It seems that the fight for the truth has been lost and the sceptic camp is simply using smear tactics now to spread doubt - a tactic used in many other areas of science to good effect...

As far as I'm concerned saying that there isn't global warming is nonsense, saying that climate change isn't our fault or can't be fixed is just avoiding the responsibility. Please read the official take on the situation (accepted by the governments of most nations on the planet) and the mass of research and supporting evidence - it's staggering how much work has been done on this and how convincing an argument it makes for acting NOW. Not that I spend every minute of every day stressing about it, but it really should be higher on the priorities of the guys in charge :wink:

Regards,
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Postby Bigears » 10 Dec 2009 23:26

Over the last couple of days I've been reading up on the latest from the sceptic camp and the most shocking thing I read was something along the lines of 'the human race has survived worse and it will survive this so we don't need to take action'. This is the same as saying 'screw our children and their children, I'm carrying on with the party and keeping the cash in my pocket'. I didn't find much convincing scientific evidence against climate change as 90% of what I found had already been shown to be false (doctored figures etc) or was out of date. It seems that the fight for the truth has been lost and the sceptic camp is simply using smear tactics now to spread doubt - a tactic used in many other areas of science to good effect...


I'm with you on that one Jas.

However, there are extreme opinions on both sides of the fence and what you've quoted is so extreme as to be dismissive in so many ways, so I would agree with you there. Where I take issue is that there are extreme views also on 'tuther side of the debate, and these are equally as dismissive because facts have definitely been made to fit arguments and statistics and the proof is more elusive than that. I too have worried about this and spent many hours if not hundreds of hours in research which I feel compelled to do. I have a 5 yr old daughter and want to do my bit to ensure her future, but the whole carbon emissions thing is still flawed and misleading at best. It is not merely CO2 which will cause the rise so why are we so focussed on this? There is also the unresolved political agenda and I trust politicians about as much as I trust myself to hand wind an MC cantilever with new coils! The debate in my view only proves that the facts have yet to be satisfactorily established before our knee jerk reactions end in more tears.....Like I said before....if the government are hell bent on brainwashing us why haven't they invested even 50% of what they promised in flood defences after 2001 and 2007 and why have they ignored the Pitt Report which they themselves commissioned? Because they want to win votes on more emotive issues and the popularilty og the global warming debate along with hiking taxes on a green agenda to disappear into their black hole...the largest government deficit in the developed world (per capita). Cynical? maybe.....Conspiracy? Nope...dont believe there is one.
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Postby midfi » 11 Dec 2009 04:36

It doesn't appear that anyone is going to change anyone's opinions on this. So I'll opt to not pay for any of it, if you don't mind. Those of you that want to pay for it, be my guest, but kindly leave me be. 8)


Agreed and Ditto with that one Mitsu. I still love y'all but I gotta take a pass on this one.

Have you actually read any of the leaked emails or what exactly was 'covered up'?

Yep, actually I read about an hours worth...
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Postby Alec124c41 » 11 Dec 2009 05:47

JaS wrote:

Over the last couple of days I've been reading up on the latest from the sceptic camp and the most shocking thing I read was something along the lines of 'the human race has survived worse and it will survive this so we don't need to take action'. This is the same as saying 'screw our children and their children, I'm carrying on with the party and keeping the cash in my pocket'.


IIRC the human race was reduced to about 600 people on the coast of Africa...

Cheers,
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