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Global Warming: United Nations Meeting In Copenhagen

anything and nothing

Postby Bigears » 08 Dec 2009 20:13

This is the one debate guaranteed to provoke deep seated feelings on both sides of the camp.

For me, the recent politics overshadows the facts. The problem is that whilst there are surprisingly few facts to link man's specific activities directly to recent climate change, the one fact remaining true is that its happening.

This raises two issues in my mind. Firstly, there's far too much talk spawned by fanatical politicians (and yes, they're the fanaticists too) about us changing things through low carbon emissions, when the truth is that dveleoping countires will only pay lip service to do this and western governments will conveniently go on hiking "green" taxes.

Secondly its the arrogance of people, mostly scientists and politicians, who think that we are even capable of reversing, let alone understanding current trends.

I hear little of what we ought to be doing to prepare for climate change and all around me there are influencial public figures, politicians (damned) celebrities and the like all fiddling whilst Rome burns.

In the UK for example, where is the commitment to the Pitt Report, published a few years ago now, on flood prevention? I'll tell you...there is no committment, and certainly none funded from green taxes.

There is however a maddening surge towards green energy sources and whilst this may be an admirable goal, its ill thought out and more costly than we would would be told.

The whole debate for me is another sickening hypothesis with the "for" camp brainwashing the younger generation with half truths and political correctness, when our energies ought to be put towards a shift in agricultural policies, being more self sufficient in all areas, not just renewables, and preparing practical measures which in this country ought to be commitment to banning development in flood plains, a move to disintegrated urban drainage systems, greater recycling and sensible measures to reduce our heating and energy needs without all the knee-jerk b*llsh*t which is flavour of the day.

I think that most on the other side of the debate, often seen as fat-earthers (no offence to Linn fans!) are open to sensible dialogue and all would agree (unless particularly dumb) on the advantages of greater efficiency and enshrining sensible planning changes into statute, but so often our voice is drowned out by suedo scientific fanaticism and very humanist and arrogant thinking which says unless we do something now, we're all doomed. Yes lets do something but not in the vain of King Canute, more in the vain of sensible practical policies on preparation for the changes that are happening. There is to my understanding as much evidence to counteract the arguments of cause as there is to prove it, but thats a futile argument to have.
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Postby jmailand » 08 Dec 2009 20:16

1200y3 wrote: Can we swim in the Great Lakes?


I, and a hundred thousand to perhaps millions of people swim in the Great Lakes every summer. I have even taken a dip in the cold waters of Lake Superior. To date I have heard of no one dying in them from pollution. In fact they are probably cleaner right now than they were when I was a kid, thanks to the environmental moment in the US and Canada and for better or worse the Zebra Mussel. If they keep the Asian Carp out of them I hope to keep swimming in them as long as I am able.
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global warming

Postby AJ-Dragon » 08 Dec 2009 21:20

G'day all, I admit to being a / climate change sceptic. 'Climate change' has been going on since the origins of this planet and greenhouse gas build up has had nothing to do with it!

What really annoys me is that very real issues like the ongoing pollution and slow poisoning of this planet is real, and yet no one seems overly concerned about that!

The whole notion of global warming/ climate change is based on unproven scientific evidence and politically inspired spin-doctoring. Give me 'reality' anytime, rather than has politically inspired b&*^%(#t. Regards, .


Greenhouse gasses? CO2? how does CO2 not pass heat through? What is the component of CO2 that stores heat?....nothing I know of....Carbon is conductive to not only electricity, but heat as well. It's a bunch of hooey to find another way to tax you to oblivion.....now that the US has declaired CO2 to be a toxic gas, we're all criminals here....unless we don't breath out. Am i against reducing pollution? Not at all!!!!!!!! CO2 is not pollution.......CO2 levels increase with warming......warming doesn't increase because of CO2. Why doesn't the government(s) go after us for the movement of the magnetic pole.......it has shifted quite a bit....too many of us using magnetic type pick-ups I'm sure. Maybe its the EMF from the turntable motors.....extra transformers for the LOMCs?



Im in full agreement this is a nother way for the rich to get richer the goverments to increese taxis and the ordenary pepole to suffer
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Postby JaS » 08 Dec 2009 21:24

Bigears wrote:The problem is that whilst there are surprisingly few facts to link man's specific activities directly to recent climate change, the one fact remaining true is that its happening.

As I understand it the links to man's activities are widely accepted in the scientific community now, the real question is whether we have left it too late to make any real impact on the problem? I'll admit I don't see much hope of adequate change being agreed upon, but I'm not going to give up yet. Any variance from the suicidal trajectory we are currently headed on will give future generations more time to adapt.

In the UK for example, where is the commitment to the Pitt Report, published a few years ago now, on flood prevention?

With the current pressure on public services I doubt they'll even be replacing sandbags any time soon, never mind spending huge resources to protect areas prone to flooding. Your reference to King Canute is quite apt - we may still be able to prevent catastrophic temperature rises and climate change by reducing our C02 output, but if we don't then the tide is going to come in ;)

Regards,
JaS

PS What's the deal with building on flood plains? Surely the clue is in the name? It would take about 30 seconds to bring in rules to force councils to accept EA advice on flood risks for new developments, but then how would they meet government targets for new housing? Maybe if London is hit next someone will take the problem seriously...
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Postby aardvarkash10 » 08 Dec 2009 21:32

meantime, my Class AB1 amp burns away at an efficiency rate of around 40%...

lol

However, I don't own a turntable younger than 25 years old, and all my amps and speakers are made from recycled 1950's components.

I'm happy with my carbon footprint. Could probably do more, but likely won't.
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Postby aardvarkash10 » 08 Dec 2009 21:36

Great post David, ...


and your earlier posts lir. Fully concur. I knew we'd find a point of agreement on something!
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Postby JaS » 08 Dec 2009 21:38

G'day all, you can listen to some of Bob Carter's comments here: http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2009 ... 2_evenings Regards, .

It was genuinely interesting hearing him speak. Unfortunately his 'evidence' for the lack of global warming has already shown to be either flawed or faked (depending on which way you view it - check my links) and the rest of his argument hinges on this :-k

Regards,
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Postby bastlnut » 08 Dec 2009 21:38

hallo,

the rich are going to try to get richer anyways,
and the politicians are going to try to twist everything to their advantage.
the climate is changing ways too fast too and we are to blame for that.
what ever ones political affitliation and sceptisism, we need to reduce the pollution we are creating every day and start cleanign up what was poisoned by our fathers and theirs.

be a sceptic if you like, just don't sit on your hands, do something for the benefit to you and your children...and their children....and so on....
if not for the CO2 output, then for a much more efficient use of the few resources we have left.
put bugs under the asses of the scientific community to start developing alternate energy sources, hopefully renewable ones.

getting the Man is what rock and roll is about, so frigg the Man.
lets help the environment and ourselves by supporting out green Earth.

regards,
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Postby Bigears » 08 Dec 2009 21:38

As I understand it the links to man's activities are widely accepted in the scientific community now, the real question is whether we have left it too late to make any real impact on the problem?


Whilst I respect that viewpoint Jas, I don't see it as clear cut having put literally hundreds of hours into research as much for my profession as out of intrest. Yes, there are studies which provide some factual and some theoretical, even philosophical argument "for" but my own work (and I am trying to stay objective and open minded) suggests that there is an equal amount of work suggesting the opposite, with things like the increase n water vapour in the atmosphere (the largest contributor to warming) largely ignored or explained away as caused by effects of CO2 rising when many facts simply dispute this.

I'm less interested in the argument than in meeting the challenges of change, as I do believe that nothing man-kind thinks he can do will actually have a dramatic impact on the current patterns, and certainly not short to medium term.

People forget, this island (and many like it) were once sub-tropical and covered in water, then came the ice age, then came the temperate climate, then in late middle ages was the mini-ice age or at least a period of intensely cold and long winters, and then it warmed up. Cycles do occur and we do not truly understand what the root cause is, only what contributes. Yes, we can minimise with effort our own contributions but this is unlikely to prevent change occurring, so time and effort should not be wasted on arguing about cause but preparing for effect.

The EA and local councils already have sufficient powers to vito planning applications by the way, its just that developers have a habit of taking them to judicial review where politicians and government inspectors overturn statute or advice they themselves signed up to! They are unequivocally a bunch of douchebags, the whole bleedin nest feathering lot of them.
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Postby bauzace50 » 08 Dec 2009 21:40

HI,
salute everybody, on both sides of the matter! I did not know there is such a large divide, and substantial amount of supporting data on both sides!

For one who declared ignorance (me) this is difficult...reading both sides and guessing which side is more pertinent.

I am choosing to uphold efforts to curb the causes of pollution and global warming.

Regards,
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Postby Alec124c41 » 08 Dec 2009 21:52

Mans folly will be his undoing, not his carbon footprint.


Man''s carbon footprint is part of his folly.

Cheers,
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Postby mysticfred » 08 Dec 2009 22:36

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Postby JaS » 08 Dec 2009 22:54

We don't amount to a pimple on the ass of this world, but yet our arrogance proclaims we can fully understand it and make it worse, or better, whichever we choose

For years politicians and sceptics argued about whether CFCs could damage the Ozone layer until science provided incontrovertible evidence that they did and we were the cause. Now this depletion has been pretty much stopped in it's tracks (bar the odd blip) by man stopping this pollution of the atmosphere for the sake of cheap propellants/coolants.

C02 is no different. We've dumped billions of tonnes of the stuff into the atmosphere even though it's been known for over a century that the gas has a greenhouse effect and could have been responsible for the last ice age. It was first calculated that C02 was having an effect on global temperatures 70 years ago and since then the evidence has grown, as has the research into a solution. Surely the problem now is socio-political not scientific? If we stopped burning fossil fuels and tearing down the rain forests tomorrow there is a good chance that temperatures would stabilise, but even reducing emissions could make a difference. I don't really see that we have a choice, but YMMV

Regards,
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Postby MonkeyBoy » 09 Dec 2009 00:15

Maybe we ought to ask the worlds glaciers and polar ice caps what they think.

I heard on the radio in my car that this decade is warmer than the '90's and the '90's were warmer than the '80's and the '80's were warmer than the '70's. Hmmm..maybe something is happening here.
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