Michael Lim's Rega Motor Isolation Base

on level ground
RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 26 Jul 2011 07:15

watercourse wrote: Well, I actually believe that this mod is taking Rega's design philosophy one step further: Rega uses light materials throughout to minimize resonances and vibrations, instead of using a suspension system or very dense materials, constrained layers, or heavy materials to isolate the deck from external influences. Making the plinth even lighter by taking the motor off-board does not conflict with Rega's philosophy, in my opinion.
Not with you on this one. For me the Regas are about lightweight and rigid, all things "bolted" together.
So by making the interaction between the vibration free motor and the plinth a loose connection you stray from the one true path .... LOL. (That's why I don't "believe" in VTA adjusters either..)

It's really interesting what you have done, and it's really a good thing that you report your findings for others to read.
This Rega-forum is a resource for us Rega owners around the world!

The main reason that I dont want this tweak is that I don't want to worry about the motor beeing in the correct position after moving the player somewhere or that the motor is level to the surface below it and to the plinth.
Just my neurotic self speaking. :)

watercourse wrote: @RoDa: Yes, the motor does not touch the plinth at all, it sits (in my case) on some Herbie's dB neutralizer sheets.
Are you using the rubber mesh, and - if so - does it couple the engine if a firm position?

watercourse wrote: P.S. I'm not sure it should sound "like a Rega" as much as it should sound like good, realistically-reproduced music. I had a P1 and P2 before, and I can tell you I wouldn't stick with the stock sound if it represents the "true" Rega sound. So I guess it depends on your point of reference. I can say that my P5 sounds better than stock (and stock wasn't bad at all) with much more clarity, improved dynamic range, pitch accuracy, more linear and smooth response, and a decreased noise floor. If the Rega "sound" (if there is one) strays from the accuracy, clarity, and the refined, pleasing, yet exciting sound I'm getting now, then I guess I don't want it.
For me, the Rega sound is about speed, life and dynamics. I suspect that in the cheaper models you loose a bit regarding focus, stability and weight in the presentation, but you still get the "live" sound. A heavier TT with more damping should sound calmer and more controlled, good for some, not for me. I have very little experience, but my earlier Well Tempered showed me that though it had some good qualities it was not the way to go for me.
You wrote -exciting-, and for me that sums up my Rega experience. When I first heard my P5 without all the upgrades, that is what made me buy it. Through the upgrades it has improved in many ways, but still the best quality -exciting- is there. 8)

Regas are not for all people, but i like the way it makes my music sound. :)


Regards
Rolf

watercourse
long player
long player
Posts: 1339
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 22:23
Location: Gum San (San Francisco, CA)

Post by watercourse » 26 Jul 2011 14:41

Rolf,

Thank you for your input and discussion. You are right about straying from the Rega line of thought. Perhaps I should say that these tweaks extend the line of thought to a further endpoint. That is what I intended to say, not to imply that any of these tweaks would be approved by Roy Gandy.

With regard to the VTA adjustment, it is something that I would recommend trying out, as the benefits far outweigh the level of effort. A person can use their first-hand experience with VTA and the non-rigid mount to test Gandy's design philosophy on that issue, rather than simply believe Gandy's ideas. Also, a person now has the ability to use many different cartridges of varying heights, and to switch out arms if one desires within a minute.

The Well-Tempered should have VTA adjustment - what did you think about it on that table?
RoDa wrote:The main reason that I dont want this tweak is that I don't want to worry about the motor beeing in the correct position after moving the player somewhere or that the motor is level to the surface below it and to the plinth.
It's actually not so bad. I emphasized the issue so that there are "no surprises" to future users. I sit the motor onto material that slides easily on my acrylic sheet, and I can eye the alignment by lining up the screwheads with the existing holes in the plinth. Then I measure with a ruler so that I don't become neurotic thinking I didn't line it up right. Eyeing it usually is correct to within .02 inches. I can experiment with different pulley distances, leaving some slack or pulling tighter, to see the differences in the sound for instance. Hopefully I won't need to move my P5 anytime soon except for cleaning and dusting.
RoDa wrote:Are you using the rubber mesh, and - if so - does it couple the engine if a firm position?
I am using the rubber mesh, but it's not coupling to the base or plinth, it sits loosely underneath it. Michael recommends 2mm slack, which I think is tight. I actually have it attached only on one side, which I've found is easier for me to transport than as a "pouch".
RoDa wrote:For me, the Rega sound is about speed, life and dynamics. I suspect that in the cheaper models you loose a bit regarding focus, stability and weight in the presentation, but you still get the "live" sound.
That's not all they lose. The MDF platter sounds dead, colored, and lacking in dynamics and frequency extension in comparison. When I tried a glass platter on the P2, it was an improvement, but there was still coloration and lack of frequency extension and dynamics. Not to sound too critical of those tables, because they are built to a price point with specific users in mind.

For me, the "live" sound is captured especially in the frequency reproduction and dynamics. Some may like the sound of the lower end Regas, but I traded up after a short time to get the sound that was more in line with what I thought (and remembered) vinyl sounded like in my teens: full-bodied and exciting. Now there is refinement, clarity and accuracy on top of that.

My wife last night mentioned how good an album sounded, Grieg's Lyric Pieces played by Gilels. This is a rare occasion for her to notice, and I believe speaks to the improvements of the tweaks.

Guest

Post by Guest » 26 Jul 2011 16:15

Rega sure has its own philosophy. Light and rigid, drain everything off.
I don't understand why an "Ikea Lak" Table is supposed to be the best. It messes my head up. Draining everything possible from the table on down through the Rega legs and through that light tabletop. People say you can hear a profound difference in using that light , hollow (no less!) table. I like my idea of the P5 draining everything off to my 50 lb. granite and stopping there much better. That Lak table is only like $10 I should try it, but I don't really have the room in my setup. I can't use Rega's own wall mount table either because of my slanted wall on that end of the room.

If you are using a 12" Sub like I was at one time it just energized the whole room too much even at low levels and high crossover, that it was very easy to get rumble feedback, bad! It was pressurizing the room. Never did that with playing digital or a suspended table. What is that hollow Lak table going to do? I have been much better off not using a Sub. Sold, I don't miss it.

The Rega tables are all about PRAT and the P5 stock sure shows that along with that "can't sit still" feeling. I heard it as soon as I fired up that table. I have had 2 P3's in the past and they all had it. I just drifted away from Rega with the other tables I have had. Depending on construction, drive choice, all tables have a signature.

The composite platters just don't sit well with me either. Just says cheapo. I would have to change that for sure. But apparently Rega says they sound better. Is Rega looking, listening to this from a sound standpoint or a pricing factor ? Maybe both. When the NEW Series tables (P3-P9) came out about 8+ years ago now, they were criticized for looks and build quality. Comparing to mostly a VPI Scout and others. Rega does consistently get great reviews, and they have been around a long time. Like it was said though, a Rega may not be for everyone.

So, back to the upgrades, I would only have 3 left. I think I'm done for now. It has crossed my mind to look for a used P7 though, there are always "deals you can't refuse" out there.

I usually keep equipment for a bit of time, and not change every year.
Although, the Phono Pre was a different story the last year.

Just nuts!!

D

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 26 Jul 2011 16:21

watercourse wrote:Rolf,
Thank you for your input and discussion. You are right about straying from the Rega line of thought. Perhaps I should say that these tweaks extend the line of thought to a further endpoint. That is what I intended to say, not to imply that any of these tweaks would be approved by Roy Gandy.

With regard to the VTA adjustment, it is something that I would recommend trying out, as the benefits far outweigh the level of effort. A person can use their first-hand experience with VTA and the non-rigid mount to test Gandy's design philosophy on that issue, rather than simply believe Gandy's ideas. Also, a person now has the ability to use many different cartridges of varying heights, and to switch out arms if one desires within a minute.

The Well-Tempered should have VTA adjustment - what did you think about it on that table?


For me, the "live" sound is captured especially in the frequency reproduction and dynamics. Some may like the sound of the lower end Regas, but I traded up after a short time to get the sound that was more in line with what I thought (and remembered) vinyl sounded like in my teens: full-bodied and exciting. Now there is refinement, clarity and accuracy on top of that.

My wife last night mentioned how good an album sounded, Grieg's Lyric Pieces played by Gilels. This is a rare occasion for her to notice, and I believe speaks to the improvements of the tweaks.

Thank you :)
Don't believe that Mr Gandy would approve any of our tweaks/upgrades.... :D
I think the P9 gives us a good hint as to what Rega thinks of decoupling the motor from the plinth. :wink:

VTA adjustment can be very helpful indeed, if you want to switch between cartridges with different height. For me - happy with my Ortofon Rondo Blue, and possibly a Bronze in the future - it's not a thing I want for my TT. I have spacers today, and guess I will perform the drill-through tweak if I need to change height.

Actually I think the drill through tweak is a bit over the top since it's a non-reversable tweak. Looking at your P5, it's clear that we are a bit different.

The VTA adjustment on the WTRP was a pain in the butt, as many of the adjustments on that player. To change the VTA I loosened a bolt and lifted the arm. But at the same time the arm could be rotated and thus changing the spindle to pivot distance giving a changed effective armlength...

Cool looking arm, but not for the impatient to adjust... :lol:

https://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a270 ... exphp7.jpg

I want my TT to be straightforward without too many adjustment possibilities, but that's just who I am. :wink:

My wife saying something about my Hi-Fi, except comments regarding the music I'm playing, is rare. So when she does, it's a proof that things really has changed! 8)

I enjoy these discussions, and though my P5 is close to the end of the line for me, it's cool to se others exploring new tweaks and upgrades.

Regards
Rolf

nabil
senior member
senior member
Posts: 963
Joined: 17 Mar 2005 17:52
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Post by nabil » 26 Jul 2011 16:25

That's what happened to me; I found a lightly used, one year old, P7 at a price that made upgrading my P25 seem silly. Now don't get me wrong, I love my P25, but adding the new motor upgrade with a TT-PSU and new groovetracer sub-platter and platter and didn't make sense when I could have a used P7 for far less than the combined cost of the P25 plus the upgrades.

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 26 Jul 2011 16:36

I think that the P7 is a good idea, nabil.
Only problem with that TT is looking at it as it spins... :lol:

Regards
Rolf

Guest

Post by Guest » 26 Jul 2011 16:38

I don't like Mods to electronics. You will never get your money back and they can be very expensive. You better like the Mod and the piece, to keep it.

Yes, it becomes a $$ factor to compare to the next model up especially on Regas. But, you can part it back out to recover $$ and there seems to be a market for these reasonable cost upgrades. Look at VPI's cost of upgrades on the HW19 series especially. That is why I left VPI. You can pick and choose how far you want to go on the Regas much easier I think.

"Nervosa" sets in and you know you want it ALL!
Love the used market.
I think that the P7 is a good idea, nabil.
Only problem with that TT is looking at it as it spins... Laughing
You got that right.

D

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 26 Jul 2011 16:43

bacobits wrote:Rega sure has its own philosophy. Light and rigid, drain everything off.
I don't understand why an "Ikea Lak" Table is supposed to be the best. It messes my head up. Draining everything possible from the table on down through the Rega legs and through that light tabletop. People say you can hear a profound difference in using that light , hollow (no less!) table. I like my idea of the P5 draining everything off to my 50 lb. granite and stopping there much better.
The idea is that the shelf or IKEA Lack table (you can also use only the top plate with spikes underneath) helps drain/move away the vibrations transferred through the air, and the internal vibrations.

The saying about foundations like your concrete slab is that the vibrations just bounce back to the TT.

I have tried the IKEA Lack table, but found that the top shelf in my Finite Elemente Pagode Signatur works better, and it should with that long name and high pricetag.

Regards
Rolf

nabil
senior member
senior member
Posts: 963
Joined: 17 Mar 2005 17:52
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Post by nabil » 27 Jul 2011 04:40

RoDa wrote:I think that the P7 is a good idea, nabil.
Only problem with that TT is looking at it as it spins... :lol:

Regards
Rolf
I'm dizzy already... actually I think it looks kind of cool. We'll see what happens in actual use.

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 27 Jul 2011 11:34

Looks really cool, nabil!
I once heard (in Göteborg, Sweden) a P7 with Lyra Helikon, Audio Research PH5, Audio Research preamplifier, and mono power amplifiers through a pair of Sonus Faber Stradivarius. MAN, did that sound great!

The guy who held the demo also played a song on both the Rega and an Audio Research CD3, and then he asked us what we preferred.
To my surprise it was 50/50 among those who listened.
For me the P7 was a lot better, but of course it comes down to personal preferences. At that time I didn't have a turntable.
Now I own a Rega....... 8)

Regards
Rolf

Sorry for all the Off Topic in your thread, watercourse.

watercourse
long player
long player
Posts: 1339
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 22:23
Location: Gum San (San Francisco, CA)

Post by watercourse » 27 Jul 2011 14:37

@Rolf: not to worry. I don't assume I should try to control my threads, unless people get personal.
One more off-topic question: Rolf, what DSLR do you use?

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 28 Jul 2011 00:50

Hi

Canon EOS400D
Canon 18-55mm standard kit lens
Canon 50mm F1.8 lens, my favourite

Regards
Rolf

MadMax
member
member
Posts: 136
Joined: 04 Jun 2007 10:38
Location: South Coast

Post by MadMax » 11 Aug 2011 18:31

RoDa wrote:
gabriel1998 wrote:At what point does a Rega Turntable stop being a Rega Turntable??
My thoughts exactly.
I think this is changing too much.

I nearly fell off my chair when I read this! Coming from the man with a 16 page thread on Rega upgrades...

I can understand that designers and manufactures will have their own philosophies when it comes to producing TTs, but I don't think that means we're obliged to follow that philosophy to the letter. I think watercourse hits the nail on the head when he says-

"I'm not sure it should sound "like a Rega" as much as it should sound like good, realistically-reproduced music."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a pop at you RoDa, and I think your mod thread is fantastic!

watercourse
long player
long player
Posts: 1339
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 22:23
Location: Gum San (San Francisco, CA)

Post by watercourse » 13 Aug 2011 00:46

Just as a follow-up, the setup is still sounding fantastic with Michael Lim's two mods: the double belt pulley and motor isolation base. Haven't moved the TT in a couple of weeks, and so the "impracticality" of the isolation base I mentioned has not really been that much of an issue.
I will likely be routing out notches in the motor mount area of the plinth so that I can orient the motor differently to take advantage of the two wider diameter holes to use for transporting the TT, and do away with the mesh netting altogether. More later when I get to that, but I'm currently breaking in a couple of 300B amps and will attend to those for the next few weeks.
Wilson

RoDa
senior member
senior member
Posts: 772
Joined: 14 Mar 2010 20:26
Location: Norway

Post by RoDa » 14 Aug 2011 22:01

MadMax wrote:
RoDa wrote:
gabriel1998 wrote:At what point does a Rega Turntable stop being a Rega Turntable??
My thoughts exactly.
I think this is changing too much.

I nearly fell off my chair when I read this! Coming from the man with a 16 page thread on Rega upgrades...

I can understand that designers and manufactures will have their own philosophies when it comes to producing TTs, but I don't think that means we're obliged to follow that philosophy to the letter. I think watercourse hits the nail on the head when he says-

"I'm not sure it should sound "like a Rega" as much as it should sound like good, realistically-reproduced music."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a pop at you RoDa, and I think your mod thread is fantastic!
LOL

I was only trying to explain my thoughts on upgrading/tweaking my Rega. All things reversible and keeping the ease of use and the simplicity of the Regas.

Regards
Rolf