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Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

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Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby Blue Angel » 10 Feb 2012 20:29

A friend sent me some pics of a 301 which had its chassis milled from brass.

It looks marvellous and the job looks like an excellent example of fine workmanship.

I did a bit of searching and came across the maker's website and read the text with some fascination.

It states that an original, stripped 301 chassis has no ring if struck. The maker of the reproduction plinth in solid metal says his reproduction chassis rings if struck and claims better vinyl reproduction because of this property of 'ringing'.

Do you think this is a good thing?

I always thought a 'dead' chassis is best :?

Garrard idler owners have since time immemorial been building massive, constrained layer plinths to minimise 'ring' and vibration.

Now here come a completely new take on 301's - solid, reproduction chassis is best as they 'ring'.

What do you think?

J.D.?, jonT?

ba
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby aardvarkash10 » 11 Feb 2012 00:09

why piss around? Mount the thing in the body of a double bass and position the lot in front of the speakers...

sheesh...
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby Blue Angel » 11 Feb 2012 00:12

aardvarkash10 wrote:why piss around? Mount the thing in the body of a double bass and position the lot in front of the speakers...

sheesh...


:lol:

ba
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby 78 archivist » 12 Feb 2012 06:55

I don't have my 301 yet, but why exactly are idlers so coveted? New super expensive turntables have massive platters driven by tiny belts and you can tell the isolation is near perfect, completely non-resonant. Yet people say they're too clinical compared to idlers. Are people fooling themselves simply by aesthetics as vintage 301s, TD124s, L75s look warm in comparison? I don't think so. I used a TD125 with an extended plinth for over a decade and its suspension system and isolating properties are much better than my TD124. But I would never want to go back to the 125, the 124 has a slam the former didn't. It's on mushrooms with the smallest possible CLD, it's really noisy. I can easily feel the motor's vibration touching the chassis.

My theory is that coupling, at just the right frequencies, the 'ring' the engineer's referring to, is actually beneficial. Obviously too much and it sounds awful as was the case before CLDs came in fashion and the original plinths were way too lightweight to provide proper dissipation. I believe there's an unforgiving sweet spot of minimal resonance ideal for idlers, yet enough people have found it that it's become popular. Resonance with too much amplitude or with the wrong frequencies is highly undesirable as is the other side where too much isolation and the music itself starts to sound 'dead'. In a way I almost consider it a type of compliance.
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby J.D. » 18 Feb 2012 01:40

Hi Blueangel,

My take on the super-re-engineering of audio classics is that, well, they tend to over-egg the pudding.

Gear like Western 300b amps, Marantz 10b tuners, Quad Esl spkrs, Tannoy dual-concentrics, the Garrard 301 and the Thorens 124 -- somehow managed to stand at the head of a massive crowd of contenders, and still, against all odds, come out on top.

We can certainly discuss probable causes and likely attributes, but few would really debate the standings.

Once people get into the appreciation and/or collecting of the iconic audio gear, the pitfalls are enormous. The two extremes tend to be :

the radical rethinker who tends toward thinking that if "perfect" is good enough, then extra-double-optimized must be more perfect, who can't stop himself from imagining 'improvements', and does things like replacing original hand-wound transformers when the originals were the part of the reason for the perfection ...

the untouchable sanctifier who tends toward blind belief in the overpowering influence of a lengendary nameplate, who won't have any repair or restoration no matter how reverent, and who will maintain that even oxidized cabling must never be replaced due to product time-line, source inauthenticity or similar ...

The second guy here is wrong because if it's demonstrably broken, it's nobody's Icon, until it is fixed. The first guy is wrong because when he super-duperizes a classic recipe, he makes it into something else. And his odds of being more inspired than the original ... are pretty much non-existent.

The precarious balance that is Legendary Audio is not to be ignored; yes a broken one will never qualify until repaired, but the combination of engineering, testing, talent and plain good luck that establishes a legend--- is just not something that can be revised, re-engineered. It's got to be carefully implemented, finessed where necessary, but not re-invented or it will never deliver anything like the signature result. The result that has been hauling in the raves for fifty or sixty years.

The guy who does the solid brass top-plates (and other aftermarketry) for the 301 may or may not be producing a good turntable. But for certain he is transforming known classics into his own, unvetted, un-legendary hybrids.

Which is okay, but not really any competition to the real thing. To be fair, if he keeps it up for another thirty years or so and all the reviews are good, ala Ken Shindo, then he'll have that track record to display as his credentials. We'll have to wait and see on that.

My Audio Eight-Ball of Fortune says : good luck, see you in 2042 for another look.

For me there's a line, over which you are reinventing-- that shouldn't be crossed if you still want a 301, or an Esl, or a WE300b.
((And even an old rethinker like Shindo-san incorporates the garrard top-plate, and voices it with the plinth. Just saying.))

J.D.
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby 78 archivist » 18 Feb 2012 13:45

J.D.

I also have doubts about the brass top platters I've seen. For closer inspection a search turned up this brand new all brass chassis and platter 301 concoction. Maybe it sounds good? Personally I could never live with such shiny turntable regardless of sound. :)
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Re: Call for a Debate, please - J.D.?

Postby bogle111 » 18 Feb 2012 14:41

I like your last post J.D.. That is a very good summation of the situation IMO. I would thoroughly endorse it. Change the basics and you have a Hot Rod.

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