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Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby Ernst3510 » 30 Sep 2011 22:41

Hi Chan,

Again about 5 hours working and trying at the Zero 100.
But first in steps:

First: My platter has a 50hz decal and i checked: nothing has loose, it's still tighten...

Second: Problem with platter is fixed, platter is running smoothly, one turn with a finger and it's keepin turning around, so the bearing of the platter is good.

Third: the wires on the tonearm are still original with the usual colors. About the yellow one: at he moment i still let him there. The tonearm has no friction and is turning smoothly... (i had a zero for parts and he had ALSO the yellow wire and ALSO cut), so i don't think it matters.

Fourth: Tonearm bearing oiling is not neccesary, as i told already it's turning and playing smoothly. I run a Empire 2000/III at 1,2grams on it. Sounds fabelous!

Concerning the motor: i oiled the two sides, and did what you suggested: takes a lot of pressure by my fingers to stop it, btw: when i start the zero manually, 33 rpm is reached in a few seconds and holding steady, no wow or flutter. I have read in the forums about startingtime over 1 minute!
So i think this is not bad...

Image

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Large wheel: no teeth broken, shows like new now...

About your second thoughts: indeed, the problem is at the starting AND the autostop.
From the moment the arm moves to the lp the platter slows down and stops. Similar at the autostop too, when the arm goes back to his base, the platter is slowing down just before he reaches his base and the platter stops.
About this: i removed at the downside a very strong spring and it seems that the problem is a little lighter now. When the arm is turning back to his base, the platter is slowing down a bit but keeps turning, so the autoshutoff is functioning now. I have put a few pictures about the spring and the part with the spring.
It seems that the problem is in this part of the automatic, but i can't locate the problem. The third picture is one i took because there is a screw in the middle but i can not make any sense of the function of it. Maybe...?

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And indeed this Zero has flying from the US to Europe, i'm using a heavy stepdown transformer, but i have replaced the platterstrobo from 60hz to 50hz and also the motorpully wich is a 50hz unit, if not it's not possible to play it at the right speed.
So, it's your turn now.
I noticed also this tread is getting popular :D
Any sugestions? You know it :) :) :)

Ernst
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby chan1 » 01 Oct 2011 08:07

Hi Ernst. Your first and second points seem good and valid.

The third point is your choice but if it were me, I would remove the yellow wire but you are probably right to say it does not interfere.

The fourth point again is your choice but if it were me I would disassemble just enough to drop a little oil on the bearing as just a few spots of friction added up can make a difference.

Oiling motor point seems good. Fixed or not it probably needed oil.

It only makes sense that it would fail in both the auto start and auto stop.
However, if removing the large spring makes the auto stop work then it tells me that the platter wheel either has a flat spot on it or is slipping or both when it must over come the tension when the spring is connected.

Do you have a second platter wheel to install to try? It is possible that just at the point when it needs to make good contact with the motor spindle the wheel comes to a small flat or worn spot on the rubber and therefore cannot turn the platter for that last bit to turn the mechanism below and complete the tonearm drop. Check that out! If you think you need a replacement, I think I know where to get one.

The bolt you refer to in your third pic is to hold tension on the strip of spring steel that the multiple lp large spindle rests on. The steel pushes the spindle up slightly when weight of the very last lp is played and allows the machine to shut off.

Try changing the platter wheel if you have one and in the meantime I will continue to think of the possible problem. We will go through each possible problem point by point if necessary.

PS: Did you try to run the machine for about a half an hour before trying auto features?

PS2: You don't need to get the blanket and pillow out for me to sleep with yet, but soon if we can't figure this out.

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby Ernst3510 » 03 Oct 2011 19:13

Hi Chan,

Took a little rest this weekend, so i did not work at the zero. (my wife was happy :D )

Back to business now:

The third point is indeed doubtable, but i'm afraid i will damage the other wires because the are really thin!

The fourth point i will do but do not know what parts i have to remove to clean and re-lubricate...

I will put back the spring.

At the moment i do not have a second platter, but i'm expecting 2 zero's for parts.
One 100S and one Z2000. The Z 2000 is my next project to restore :D

But first this one! It's my first Zero and it keeps my beloved player :D

I must say the Zero was in the beginning playing good except de automatic.
At manual play, the arm was coming back at his base perfectly.
The misery started when i started cleaning and lubricating the plastic rod at the auto, you know, with the long spindle.
Can remeber that i heard a "clack" when i dissassembled the plastic thing, but, i hav not seen what it was. Since then the whole auto was f***d up!
So, if you have any pictures or idea's concerning this item, i'm pretty sure that the evil is around there...
Put a picture with it to point it out.

Image

Concerning the motor, i let him run long enough, he was good warmed up!

And remember, always a room and a bed ready :wink:

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby Ernst3510 » 03 Oct 2011 19:18

Btw, one picture from a little tool i found in the console of the Garrard.
Don't know what it is, or for what purpose...

Image

Image

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby chan1 » 04 Oct 2011 01:16

Hi Ernst.

I am confused about several of your statements and we may have a small language barrier but I will try to explain.

Ernst3510 wrote:The fourth point i will do but do not know what parts i have to remove to clean and re-lubricate.

We will still hold off on doing this until the end.

Ernst3510 wrote:At the moment i do not have a second platter, but i'm expecting 2 zero's for parts.
One 100S and one Z2000. The Z 2000 is my next project to restore :D

When they arrive, you can try to use the idler wheel off of the zero100S to see if it works and fixes your problem.

Ernst3510 wrote:I must say the Zero was in the beginning playing good except de automatic.
At manual play, the arm was coming back at his base perfectly.

This statement confuses me. So in manual, all worked good and now even in manual pushing stop does not work?


Ernst3510 wrote:The misery started when i started cleaning and lubricating the plastic rod at the auto, you know, with the long spindle.
Can remeber that i heard a "clack" when i dissassembled the plastic thing, but, i hav not seen what it was. Since then the whole auto was f***d up!


Again confusing. Not sure what what you mean by plastic rod and plastic thing?
I have added a pic to see if this is the part you are talking about marked with a red arrow.
http://img131.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _397lo.JPG
If I am wrong about the above pic, then add a pic with an arrow to the right part.

If that is the part, then remove the plastic part and make sure the brass part below is completely over the large part of the rod it is mounted to. Put a few drops of oil there and reassemble. Pic marked in blue below.
http://img215.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _804lo.JPG

PS: Not to sure we are going to be able to solve without talking on the telephone. If you want to do this, figure out the time difference from you to the US Central Time Zone and PM me and I will give you my phone number.

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby Ernst3510 » 09 Oct 2011 13:15

Hi Chan,

Had time last week to work on the Zero...
The last 2 pictures you send me shows the part i ment, the plastic "thing".
Removed it, (again) cleaned it,(again) and lubricated it. Again.
So i did the same with the parts below it...
I completly disassembled the zero, except the tonearm!
Put it all together, and nothing, same thing as before.
After a few days i connected the Zero back on his place, because in manual mode he was playing good; and see, a miracle was happened :D
The automatic was working pefectly!!!
I don't know what happened, maybe it was the total disassembling, or a few days resting, so that the oil get's everywhere...
Happy again now!
Don't know how to thank you with all your inputs :D :D =D> =D> =D>
I put some pictures here and also a link to youtube.
http://youtu.be/KXY0pz94jfo
As you can see the Zero is in distingueshed company :)
NOW i only have to find out how to lower the rumble! It's not disturbing, but on silent passages you can hear it... You know, any suggestions are welcome!

Ernst

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby DSJR » 09 Oct 2011 21:32

S'cuse me for butting in, but the trip pawl linkages on the main auto-cam look to be oily in the pictures. These bits (the nylon piece and the metal piece above which pivots and slides on it to actuate the mechanism) MUST be kept clean and DRY, the only oil being a tiny drop at the pivot end to keep these parts free to move. If these bits are oily, they could impede the arm at end-of-side and also not properly retract near the end of the cycle. The slider should also be kept dry, the friction remaining low because of the nylon brackets it runs in.

Hope this helps.

P.S. In the UK, we tended to remove the brush on the Stanton cartridges and track at 1.2g instead. The Zero 100 arm should be fine with this once the trip parts are working right...
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby DSJR » 10 Oct 2011 14:56

In response to PM, I've hi-jacked one of your pics to show you the trip parts I was possibly clumsy in describing..

Image

The pawl assembly is the nylon plastic piece at the top of the cam-gear pictured, together with the associated metal part on the other side of the gear. The sliding linkage which actuates it is the thick "wire" piece on the extreme right of the picture. Hope this makes sense. These parts MUST be kept totally dry and oil free, apart from a tiny oil-drop on the pivot, which goes through the cam and holds the pieces in place.

As the auto-cycle nears its end, the pawl parts should be pushed back and away from the rotating platter parts, thus preventing the mechanism from re-engaging.

Hope this helps :)
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby chan1 » 11 Oct 2011 15:32

Hi Ernst. So glad it is working 100%. It was probably the freeing up of the part in question under the plastic part (connected to the long rod speed selector) in question that did it.. If all the steps are followed in this post and my previous posts, I can see no reason all should not work 100%.

On a another note, I notice in your pics you are using a record weight. Were you using this weight when describing all failed previous automatic flaws? The weight puts much extra pressure on the the mechanism to perform perfect.

Also, you must have had to adjust the motor spindle quite q bit to compensate for the platter weight you added? Please explain the procedure necessary to make your platter weight work in conjunction with the speed and strobe.

How well does the platter weight work? Does it have profound effect on the performance of the machine? How much weight is it exactly?

Also, have you tried the long auto spindle yet. Do all the functions work perfect when playing multiple lp's?

Rumble is a different matter. There is not enough quality built into the Zero to improve this much. If you find a way to do this, please post it here for all to read. I, however have tried this: Extra cork under the feet made a small difference. Putting a level on the machine to make sure it is as good as possible while adding the cork previously mentioned helped.

The mat on the platter could use some improvement. The problem is: with the mat removed the surface of the platter itself is flat for 2 or 3 inches and then drops down to the center. The mat has built in rubber rings to compensate for this drop to the center to support it there. I have thought about buying a cork or other type of mat but how to support it at the center point has eluded me. If you can think of a way please share it here.

Also, I think you mentioned that you are using an Empire 2000E/lll cartridge and stylus? I am using that as well as others. The 2000E/lll gives me much better sound. Are you mistaking sound with rumble?

Finally, I am very envious of the fact that you now own a Zero 100 S. They are rare to impossible to find in the US as I do not think they were released here which means that any found run on 200 volts at 50Hrz with a 50Hrz decal on the platter and need to be changed to the US standard. I have found them for sale but the shipping cost is outrageous.

Waiting to hear from you regarding the above inquiries.

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby chan1 » 11 Oct 2011 15:54

DSJR. You have a very valid observation with the trip pawl oil problem. All Zero's could be improved by keeping this area clean of oil.

Please add any thoughts on you may have on the rumble problem mentioned in the last posts to this thread. New type of mat, etc.

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby chan1 » 11 Oct 2011 18:40

Ernst. Since hearing your question about rumble yesterday, I conducted a rumble test over night on several different systems. The results of these tests are just my opinion and only using my ear to determine the quality.

Test equipment:
Mcintosh all around 1958:
Mcintosh tube type phono pre-amp
Mcintosh tube type amp
Mcintosh tube type amp-receiver
About 200 watts per channel with slightly reduced tube output

Sansui 9090DB Amp-receiver
Integrated circuit type unit
125 watts per channel
Another 75 watts per channel added from reverb-amp unit

Garrard 301 grease bearing turntable
SME tonearm
Marble plith to carry units above
301 all original

Garrard Zero100
All original except original mat glued down flat to surface of platter (this should increase rumble factor if there is one).

Brand new Empire 999VE cartridge
Brand new OEM 999VE stylus
Tracking weight at 1.10 grams

Empire 9700 series 5-way speakers

lp played- MFSL version of the Moody Blues lp
"On the Thresold of a Dream"

All equipment running at optimal in my opinion.

Garrard 301 with Mcintosh equipment giving a slightly better rumble factor when comparing to Zero 100.

Garrard 301 with Sansui equipment giving the very same results compared to Zero 100 in rumble factor.

Garrard Zero100 I noticed has an nearly equal rumble factor as the tonearm moves across LP and finally finishes using Mcintosh equipment.

Garrard 301 has an increased rumble factor as tonearm moves across LP and finally finishes using Mcintosh equipment.

The 2 factors are nearly equal using Sansui equipment with the Zero 100 being slightly and only slightly better.

Both the 301 and Zero have increased rumble factor when closely listening to starting grove of lp. Probably this is expected in this grove.

Conclusion: As much bad mouthing as the Zero100 receives in my opinion when compared to the 301 is not warranted. The 301 and Zero are both idler driven machines and so both give nearly the same results. Tube type systems tend to ferret out differences in rumble factor's as they give a much more real sound to all played music but are extremely costly to operate. Draw your own conclusions but the Zero is not bad in comparison.

Next comparison: Pro-ject Expression belt driven machine and Zero100
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby DSJR » 13 Oct 2011 09:14

I have an AP76 coming my way at some point in the near future, so although the main bearing is an inverted single-point, rather than running on a ball race, I may have some ideas about what to try..

In the meantime, I have a venerable Lab 80mk2 which is used regularly. For the main bearing on this one, I used regular LM grease all round the ball race and a reasonable amount of viscous EP80 gear oil on the shaft and bronze sleeves. These bearings were quite close tolerance in any case and there's no platter-rock, so I don't think there's much more I can do here.

HOWEVER, the idler wheel quality is paramount to reasonably quiet operation I found. I currently have three idlers, two from previous Garrard auto decks. Visually, they all look similar and are interchangeable, but the one as fitted to the Lab 80 is softer in composition (or has aged better?) and, apart from a small "flat" where someone left it in storage with it engaged :(, is very smooth and quiet running. Lovely old deck this, but it did need some work on it, the arm bearings especially. Tracks an old Grado F1+ well though...

The restoration of the Z2000 will be very interesting. I never used one of these and the hybrid idler/belt drive should be much quieter through the speakers hopefully.

The only final thing I did think about with these, is the slop in the headshell bearings, which I remember from the Zero 100SB's we sold. has anyone tried a drop of "cueing device" style grease on these? This should/may minimise any negative effects here but without affecting friction-drag levels unduly.....
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby teac4010 » 13 Oct 2011 12:24

DSJR wrote:The only final thing I did think about with these, is the slop in the headshell bearings, which I remember from the Zero 100SB's we sold. has anyone tried a drop of "cueing device" style grease on these? This should/may minimise any negative effects here but without affecting friction-drag levels unduly.....


The headshell bearing should have no slop and turn freely if adjusted properly. The bearing's thrust washer is usually relaxed after 40 years and needs to be readjusted/tightened. Note the "black goop" covering the nut when the decorative disc is removed. This was added after adjustment to reduce any resonance, I believe. Make sure the headshell is unrestricted throughout its entire range by the bearing loading or the cartridge wiring. Note the bearing and the wiring, high tech even by today's standards. :o Regards.
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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby Ernst3510 » 16 Oct 2011 15:32

Hi Chan,

Today i was looking for the "rumble" problem. :D
In my opinion, the platter was ringing like a bell! :(
It has nothing to do with the platter bearing, that one is turning around smoothly.
Maybe the idler-wheel? You can hear the rumble when you start it up, the idler-wheel goes against the outherside of the platterring, and the ringing started. How faster the platter goes,( i tried it manually with my hand) how harder it is rumbling. So, Ravel's Bolero is off-limits at the moment. :cry:
AND: when i put the platter back on, i'm back to "Zero" now! Same problem as earlier: the platter holds on when starting or stopping.
Now i'm out of idea's.
The only thing i did today was taking the tt out of his console, took off the platter and cleaned the idler and the inside of the platter. Put all together and bingo, again the same problem.
I'm a Zero-fan, but now at the moment... :evil:

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Re: Zero 100 Automatic Flaw...

Postby teac4010 » 16 Oct 2011 17:22

Ernst3510 wrote:Hi Chan,

Today i was looking for the "rumble" problem. :D
In my opinion, the platter was ringing like a bell! :(
It has nothing to do with the platter bearing, that one is turning around smoothly.
Maybe the idler-wheel? You can hear the rumble when you start it up, the idler-wheel goes against the outherside of the platterring, and the ringing started. How faster the platter goes,( i tried it manually with my hand) how harder it is rumbling. So, Ravel's Bolero is off-limits at the moment. :cry:
AND: when i put the platter back on, i'm back to "Zero" now! Same problem as earlier: the platter holds on when starting or stopping.
Now i'm out of idea's.
The only thing i did today was taking the tt out of his console, took off the platter and cleaned the idler and the inside of the platter. Put all together and bingo, again the same problem.
I'm a Zero-fan, but now at the moment... :evil:

Ernst


Just my humble opinion, if the turntable "rings" when turned by hand it has not been assembled/adjusted properly. If it "rings" when the motor spins the platter it has not been assembled/adjusted properly. If the platter "rings" it is rubbing on something, like the deck or the motor assembly.

Are you certain the platter main bearing has been reassembled properly, if not, the platter to deck spacing will be incorrect ("rubbing/ringing") and the changer mechanism will not contact the main shaft gears properly (binding).

If the motor assembly is not assembled/adjusted properly the idler can run into something it shouldn't depending on the speed selected or all the time.

Just some thoughts. Regards.
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