A Peculiar Tracking Issue On Garrard Type A

[hkvinyl]

I'm hoping to get some advice on a tracking issue I have with my old Garrard Type A. On every record it always skips at the same location: at the very end of the record, in the last 1/4 inches of the record to the run out. It plays wonderfully up to that point but always skips when it reaches the very last, I'd guess, 10 grooves of the record. The cartridge is a Shure M7-DM with an N3D (or replacement) stylus. The stylus is new but it does it with the old one too. This happens if I use any tracking force below 5 grams. At 5 grams it does not skip. Now, this stylus calls for a tracking force of 2 to 2.5 grams and it sounds very good with 2 grams except for the above issue. There is an auto trip mechanism on type A that comes into effect (according to the manual) when the arm reaches a distance of 2 and 7/8 inches from the center. This corresponds exactly to the spot where the skipping happens. Is there something to be adjusted? Or are these machines and arms not designed to track at lower forces? The manual says make sure the table is level and the wires coming out of the back of the arm are not stretching, which I've made sure of. But the fact that it happens exactly at the same spot must have a cause. What is it? Any ideas? I would love to hear any ideas and advice you may have.

[grooveman]

I own a Type A with a Shure M3D and N3D stylus. I believe the N3D stylus requires a tracking force of 3-5 grams. I've got mine tracking at about 3.5 grams and have had no problems with skipping. Did you try tracking at say just under 4 grams? This is supposed to be the optimum tracking force acoording to the M3D/ N3D stylus manual. It should be about the same with your M7D and N3D stylus. I know the N21 stylus allows tracking at 1.5-2.5 grams, but since your's is a N3D it needs to track at a heavier weight. Also, did you balance the tonearm before setting the tracking force? If not, this could be the problem.

[hkvinyl]

Thanks for the suggestion. It may very well be that this stylus requires a higher tracking force. It is a replacement stylus which I bought from garage-a-record. They sell this as a replacement for N3D, N7D and N21D and they indicate a tracking force of 1.5-2.5 grams. And this is a little strange because original Shure N21D and N7D (even though they look very similar) track at very different forces. So it might well be that this after market replacement stylus is more like N7D (tracking at 5 grams) than an N21D (tracking at 2 grams) or N3D (tracking at 4 grams). Who knows!

[grooveman]

Try gradually decressing the tracking force below 5 grams to determine at what setting the cartridge/arm will properly track at. I think if it was something to do with the auto trip mechanism, the arm would attempt to lift at the given point that it's set at. Sounds like a tracking force issue.
I use my Type A strictly manual, due to the fact that the auto function tends to get hung up and doesn't complete it's cycle without spinning the platter. I tried cleaning/ lubricating the mechanisms underneath, but it still doesn't complete the cycle. I really don't want to attempt disassembling and cleaning all the moving parts. Personally, I don't like to stack my records anyway, so manual operation is fine for my use.
Maybe the idler needs to be rebuilt? Not enough torque to complete the cycle? I tried to refurbish it by soaking and lightly sanding it, but still the same results. That said, I adjusted the auto trip mechanism so the arm continues to play into the run out of the record without lifting......like a manual turntable. I did some dampening underneath the inner platter and use a thicker cork mat with the original sitting on top. Sounds pretty nice after these tweaks!
These Type A's are nice old turntables that seem to be gaining interest lately. The prices for some reason have recently started to esculate, especially for nice restored examples. Maybe it has to do with the nostalgia factor of once owning one?

[hkvinyl]

I agree, type A is a nice player and the interest in them is on the rise. My guess is that there will be even more interest once people discover how wonderfully they are built. They qualify to be collectible just like old clocks or cameras. The fact that they're still inexpensive is due to the fact there are not that many people who collect old turntables. Compare it to fountain pens, for example, for which there are a lot of collectors, and the price is still very good. These are completely mechanical (except for the motor) and for that reason can be fully restored. I have a few old Garrards including a 301 with a 3012 arm. It is not right to compare a 301 with a Type A because one is a transcription table with a separate and very accurate arm and the other is a changer. But type A sounds damn good for what it is and it looks good too. Since I like to rummage for old records, I use my type A for some very old records I find. I too use it strictly as manual. The auto function works but I don't fully trust it. This problem with tracking is the only problem I have with it. I do balance the arm and I have other gadgets to measure the force independently from the calibration on the arm (which I have to say is fairly accurate) but as I said it skips at the end of the record unless I set it at 5 grams. I don't know how damaging 5 grams would be to records but the records I play on it are very old too and I imagine they had been played on with forces much greater than 5. I have many other cartridges but they all designed for forces below 1.5 grams so I can't try them on this player. It may very well be that my replacement stylus is more like a N7D than an N3D or N21D and therefore requires a larger force. It's always a problem not knowing what you're buying when the stylus comes without any information as to who made it and what specification applies to it.

[Alec124c41]

Do you suppose the auto changing system is getting stiff? If this problem is happening at the end of the record, I suspect the mechanism might be starting to engage.

Cheers,
Alec

[LPfan]

Agree with Alec.

IMO you should not compel yourself to track at more than the correct VTF ONLY TO PUSH THE TRIP MECHANISM IN ACTION.

When was the TT last lubed? If this has not been done in the near past, do that. Clean out all old grease and lubricant. Lube the trip mechanism and the tonearm movement mechanism with fresh lubricant. This shall ensure that minimum force is required to push these into action.

When you have lubed the parts, watch the movement bellow chassis while moving the tonearm. You shall observe a small arm or lever moving along with the tonearm. When the tonearm is at the position of the last grooves of the innermost track, this lever shall start hitting another lever to push the trip mechanism. Try to adjust the levers so they start engagement at the beginning of the runout grooves.

Lastly, try pinging JoeZ here. He has a TypeA and vast experience with this and many other turntables. I am sure that he can give far more precise advice than me.

Regards,

LPfan

[hkvinyl]

Yes Alec, I suspect that it might have something to do with the auto trip mechanism. It's curious that it happens exactly at the spot where the auto trip mechanism is supposed to come into action (2 and 7/8 inches from the center according to the manual). Notice that in most record that is still a little distance before the run out area of the record. I can push this action back but then it would be out of specification (maybe). The question is I don't know how to confirm this suspicion or what to do about it.

And, you're right, LpFan, it has not seen a lubrication in ages. It might very well be that it needs a lubrication. All the gears underneath and those under the turntable are very clean, as clean as if they were made yesterday. There is absolutely no sign of wear of any kind. And no sign of gummed up grease. The brake pad is worn (it has nothing with this problem) but I don't know how to pull it out because I don't know how to loosen the clips. But that is a different problem.

I can lubricate it but then I would know where exactly to apply the lubricant. I imagine all the cams would need lubrication but since it is not said in the manual where to apply the lubricant I don't want to do it without being sure. The auto trip mechanism, for example, has something called a friction plate. It should be absolutely clean from any oil or dust. Mine is. The trip mechanism also is not engaged just by moving the arm. It requires also the rotation of the spindle. That makes it difficult to observe how it works.

Grateful to all of you,
hkvinyl

[LPfan]

Hi hkvinyl,

Check this thread, detailed explanation by JoeZ on how to observe the mechanism in action.
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=24758

It is the mechanism that is binding and obstructing the tonearm from moving ahead. I have picked up a neglected dirty looking TypeA from the flea market a few months ago. It shall require a lot of TLC but on this and all other Garrards that I have purchased, the gears and cams always look shiny and new. Perhaps Garrard used special invisible grease. There is also talk of cadmium coating of these parts, don't know how true that is.

Follow the steps in that thread; I am sure you shall get a clue to the problem.

Regards,

LPfan

[bikelectro]

Clean the friction plate with a cotton bud and alcohol, there only needs to be a thin film of grime and it will be too stiff, it is under the platter, dont adjust anything until you have tried this. Search the forum, there is a lot on about it, i rescued mine from 30 years in a shed and restored it, i love it! Mine will track and follow the runout at 3 grms. I find it best to just clean the friction plate and leave it with no lube. As trips go, it is a bit high in friction and wont work reliably below 3 grms, which is where the graduation marks start ( probably because they knew this was it's minimum ) Good luck, you will enjoy it and it performs really quite well an is solidly constructed.

[hkvinyl]

Thank you for all your posts.

I cleaned the friction plate as was one of the suggestions and now it tracks without skipping at 4 grams but skips at the same exact spot at any force below that. I could lube it or change stylus or do some other thing to see if it helps further.

But now I'd like to pose the question in a slightly different way. I started by trying to find out if there was a particular problem with my example of type A and now I'm wondering if there is a general problem or at least a limitation with this model.

I'd like to be able to track at 2 grams or even less. Not 3 or 4. I might sound if not prissy at least stubborn. But that's the way it is. I'll explain:

This very old changer with that antique cartridge and that unknown stylus on it recreates an amazing sound and is capable of playing any record without any issue except that it appears that it needs a minimum force of 3 (in my example 4) at the very end of the record. Is this a general case? Is it generally true of all them? Does anybody's experience contradict that? Is there a way out of it? I never stack up records and I can even give up the auto return function. Would then be there a way to free it from this limitation of 3 grams minimum force?

I know that the arm tracks beautifully even the most beaten up record at 2 grams up to that spot at the end where it skips. I've not tried it but I'd bet that it is capable of tracking with the right cartridge even at 1.5 or 1 gram. So the arm is not at fault.

Imagine all the possibilities for this wonderful table if there were not that requirement of minimum force for the auto return at the end. The arm is quite capable on its own until it engages at the end. I'd like to be able to trust all my records to it and not just the old rummaged ones.

That's the way I feel now.

cheers to all,
hkvinyl

[LPfan]

Hi hkvinyl,
I have not been able to refurbish and use my TypeA yet, but I also have a 4HF, this is a single player with auto shut off and a slightly different version of the TPA 12 arm. On this, I thoroughly cleaned and lubed the auto shut off mechanism, also checked the tonearm wires for proper routing, and was able to track at 2.5 grams with the auto shut off enabled. With the auto shut off disabled, the table tracks perfectly at 1.8 grams. The cartridge is Shure M55.
Regards,
LPfan

[bikelectro]

I forgot to say, remove circlips and clean the bearings/pivots that move when the arm begins to move the trip. I think doing this will get you going at 3 grms. Removing the trip assy will get you tracking less, but the arm bearings are not that free on this late 50's design, also it has no anti-skate bias, so i would not go less than 2.5. But i'd say get it working at 3, with fairly compliant MM cartridges you don't need to worry about wear too much, i play good LPs on mine with no worries. It is one of the best changers and i drop good records on it on auto with confidece. It is better to track well at 3 grms than damage your records tracking badly at 2!
Also, it seems to be normal that these slow down a lot during one part of the cycle at 33rpm. I cleaned and lubed mine fully and got little benefit, i think it is the design. Make sure your idler is grippy enough, and if it gets thru the cycle at 33, i'd say leave it alone. Mine was in a cold climate, but i know it gets hot NY!
If you search the forum, i put a description of my renovation somewhere. The deck gives good solid bass, but they do rumble a litte bit. If it was my only deck, i think i would see no need to buy another, really is surprisingly good!

[grooveman]

I have to agree that tracking below 3 grams with the Type A's arm might be risky, and could possibly cause groove damage. How does it sound when you are tracking below 3 grams? Are you hearing any edginess or experiencing mistracking? If so, I'd increase the tracking force to where it sounds clean/smooth and tracks without any problems.
Keep in mind that the Type A's heavy mass tonearm requires a low compliance cartridge/stylus, and recommended tracking force is in the 3 gram range on these type of cartridges/stylus.

Btw....anyone interested in starting an official Type A owners thread? Seems like there's quite a bit of interest in this 50 year old Garrard favorite. Might be nice to have a dedicated thread to share info with fellow Type A owners!