stylus "break-in"

[steve195527]

Nahh.... it's just so you get used to the crappy sound over time.

You'll assume that when new it sounds like poop and will get better. After a while your ears get used to how it sounds and since you won't have a "before and after" method of comparing it, you'll go on your merry way thinking that what you're getting out of it is the best that it can do.

Phenomenon of changed cartridge frequency response from first use to + 10 or + 20 hours confirmed by measurement of frequency spectrum of pink noise track on test record analysed by FFT.

can you post plots of this?would be interesting to see which plot adheres to vendors spec best:-the new or the run in one

[Trackside]

Trackside... please share with us your "better understanding of the mechanical properties of the materials used in cartridge suspensions"

I don't have any better understanding other than hearing (and measuring via FFT frequency analysis and bias test records) the phenomenon. That's no worse than blaming manufacturing or design though when you think something should work 100% out of the box. I know why old cars needed running in BTW but it has nothing to do with elastomer material properties - of that I am sure. I could assume however that certain elastomers change their physical characteristics when subject to compression and expansion. If you stretch a balloon prior to blowing it up it's a lot easier for instance - this would indicate at least that some materials with elastic qualities do at least exhibit a similar quality.

a 1p balloon is hardly a precision instrument as a cartridge is claimed to be!another analogy to cars is the suspension gets worse with age,including the hydrolastic/hydraulic types used in Citroen and old Leyland cars,I just don't understand how vendors can design a break in criteria in the suspension when they have no idea of the conditions the cartridge will be used in,I also know why old cars needed running in as well,was just using that as an example of something that didn't perform at its best when new(unless you bought an hight performance car with a blue-printed engine!),in fact Millers recommended not using their fancy synthetic oil to do so as it is too slippy

Balloon was simply a universally experienced example of how an elastic materials physical qualities can be modified by the application of a force. I wan't claiming it was a precision instrument nor that a carts suspension is made of the same material but it makes the general phenomenon distinctly plausible and worthy of investigation and consideration. Also rubber belts for TT's are known to stretch over time which is not for the best but it's also been claimed that pre stretching a belt in an even and controlled way will optimise the performance on some decks.

[Trackside]

Nahh.... it's just so you get used to the crappy sound over time.

You'll assume that when new it sounds like poop and will get better. After a while your ears get used to how it sounds and since you won't have a "before and after" method of comparing it, you'll go on your merry way thinking that what you're getting out of it is the best that it can do.

Phenomenon of changed cartridge frequency response from first use to + 10 or + 20 hours confirmed by measurement of frequency spectrum of pink noise track on test record analysed by FFT.

can you post plots of this?would be interesting to see which plot adheres to vendors spec best:-the new or the run in one

I can dig them out but can only compare before and after as frequency response will also be dependednt on the amplification used, loading and the test record so direct comparison with manufacturing specs is not possible.

[steve195527]

I can dig them out but can only compare before and after as frequency response will also be dependednt on the amplification used, loading and the test record so direct comparison with manufacturing specs is not possible.

so basically your saying you don't know if the before or after condition is correct?so the break in may actually be a deterioration from its ideal condition?

[Trackside]

Well if it sounds and measures like treble lift and mistracks without greater than specified VTF when new and then sounds and measures like an even tonality and tracks ok at normal VTF after 20 hours and stays like that I'd call that an improvement. The other option is that carts only last 20 hours and manufacturers specs for VTF and cart loading are only for worn out suspensions.Oh and try to do some of your own research and tests Steve - I could be making it all up and it's Oh so easy to manipulate or fake FFT frequency plots......

[Ldg]

A short time ago, Ed made recordings of a cartridge early and lste in its break in cycle, and posted them for analysis. In the frequency domain, results showed mostly no difference, except at LF as shown here :



Such differences are not obvious to explain, but perhaps are related to elastomer suspension in the vertical aspect. In any event, the frequencies involved would influence stability and tracking primarily. It does appear 'better' later, ie when broken in.

[steve195527]

A short time ago, Ed made recordings of a cartridge early and lste in its break in cycle, and posted them for analysis. In the frequency domain, results showed mostly no difference, except at LF as shown here :



Such differences are not obvious to explain, but perhaps are related to elastomer suspension in the vertical aspect. In any event, the frequencies involved would influence stability and tracking primarily. It does appear 'better' later, ie when broken in.

is the low frequency peak at approx 7.5hz the arm/cart resonance?if it is is seems a very low level,and is the one higher up a 3x multiple of this?(22.5hz)

[cats squirrel]

would elastomer in old cartridges be rubber, whereas more modern ones may be synthetic.

I believe B&W state that modern materials do not need to be broken in!

We tend to cling on to reduntant notions, some still refer to the sharp end as the needle!

[Trackside]

Some research needed into cart suspension elastomers.
I still like saying I'm listening to the gramophone

[hoolio]

Breaking in appears to be the consensus for cable, electronics, speakers and cartridges. The claim is that they won't sound their best until a certain amount of time in use has passed by. This is either correct or there are a lot of liars and fools about.

My money is on some period of use before a long period of optimal performance.

I'm not sure measuring an item will give a convincing answer any more than measurements will tell us how a particular item will ultimately sound.

[Bran Kulez]

o.k. so if stylus suspension "break-in" does occur and improves the sound of the stylus, that means the properties of the suspension have changed. At what point does it stop changing? In this case, the vendor recommended 20 hours of break-in at a given tracking force and then you have a stylus that sounds as good as it's going to. This may be the design intent but my guess is that if change is designed into the suspension then change will continue to occur throughout the life of the stylus.

It's kind of like building a house in a swamp but elevating it on stilts so that at some point while it's sinking you'll be able to walk into the front door without using a ladder.

[farispaul]

I think when we here a stylus "wears out" it is the suspension rather than the tip being worn. It gets knocked about alot, hitting outer grooves and with cueing mistakes. It becomes less springy, and when we exchange the stylus the frequency response, speed and impact return.
All things on this planet continue to wear out. My best stage was at 20, years not hours!

[Trackside]

o.k. so if stylus suspension "break-in" does occur and improves the sound of the stylus, that means the properties of the suspension have changed. At what point does it stop changing? In this case, the vendor recommended 20 hours of break-in at a given tracking force and then you have a stylus that sounds as good as it's going to. This may be the design intent but my guess is that if change is designed into the suspension then change will continue to occur throughout the life of the stylus.

It's kind of like building a house in a swamp but elevating it on stilts so that at some point while it's sinking you'll be able to walk into the front door without using a ladder.

That's assuming the rate of change of the material is constant.

[Ldg]

Breaking in appears to be the consensus for cable, electronics, speakers and cartridges. The claim is that they won't sound their best until a certain amount of time in use has passed by.

I don't think its fair to group such things together, though it is human nature to think that all machines require some break in, only sometimes does it have a tangible basis. Hifi components which rely on elastomer materials, such as speakers and cartridges, seem to have a pretty plausible real case to answer.

But things like cables and much electronics doesn't readily fit, there's no apparent explanation for any perceived change. On the other hand, human nature might offer an explanation here, because it could well be ourselves that get broken in, as our adaptation to whatever is new operates at a number of human levels.