Ripping into computer, setup not getting good results.

[Neosashi]

Hello,

I am new here. I am hoping that you guys can help me out with an issue that I've had for years, in fact, ever since I've bought my first turntable. I bought my current setup for DJ mixing purposes, a Pioneer DJM-600 and two Technics SL-1200MK2 turntables fitted with an ortofon Nighclub series 1 E cartridge (The kind I bought did not require a headshell.) Recording mixes into my computer always sounded flat compared to mp3s, but it was not an issue I invested much time into figuring out back then. Fast forward a bit. I produce House music and have recently came accross a decent sized lot of old records I would like to sift through and sample for music production purposes. So, this summer I decided I would try and solve the issue with my signal chain producing undesirable resaults.

My current signal chain has been turntable into phone pre of DJM-600, from the master outs of the DJM-600 going into an M-Audio Fast Track Pro with a pair of Female XLR to TRS cables. After recording into my DAW of choice (Reason 6)I feel as if the recording is somewhat flat and lacking in certain frequencies. When compared to an mp3 of the same recording it does not sound as crisp, or as sharp as the mp3. The vinyl rip is rather harsh in the high end with some frequencies distorting. To some up, I feel as though the recording from my vinyl is not as well rounded as an 128Kbps. This is of concern as Mp3s kind of suck. I did a lot of research and reading the past 2 months, on this forum, as well as gearslutz.com and others trying to figure out what my issue could be. It was recommended to me that I buy a better stylus for my Technics 1200. I was recommended the Nagaoka MP-100 and it saw also suggested that the pre-amp in my DJM-600 may not be that great. So, I also purchased a Radial J-33 pre-amp with the hopes that it would make the sound more full.

I received these two items the other day. I had to teach myself how to equipped the cartridge to the Technics head-shell as my previous cartridges just snapped in. I did not use the Technics head-shell weight as the instructions with the turntable said to use it on cartridges less than 6g. The Nagaoka weighs 6.5. The Nagaoka came with two sets of screws with one set longer than the other. I used the shorter pair. I then used the Technics overhang gauge to align the stylus with the end of the gauge. I did not attempt to align the tip of the stylus with the small triangle as I read (and the source was not that credible, but there was little information on the subject found on the web) that all, or most, of the overhang gauges shipped with the Technics 1200s are defected. However, leaving the cartridge parallel to the head-shell, the stylus seems to line up with the triangle on the gauge (which is off-center). This is how I left it, before deciding to tighten up the screws as tight as I could.

After inserting the head-shell with cartridge to the tone arm I calibrated it, adjusting the height of the tone arm to be as parallel to the mat, with record on top, as I could (I used a ruler measuring the front and back of the arm). The amount of tracking force I applied was 2 grams (manufacturer recommendations 1.8-2.3g) with the anti-skating set to 2. I also switched the mat to the rubber one that came with the Technics instead of the slip mat I had been using.

I am sorry if I am going into too much detail, but I want to make sure I am explaining everything as clearly as I can, as I am bewildered with what my issue is. I began to ran tests.

I chose 3 tracks (two with vocals) off of 3 different records to do comparison tests. I would be comparing the recordings through 3 different signal chains: A. Technics 1200>J-33>Fast Track Pro B. Technics 1200>J-33>DJM-600>Fast Track Pro C. Technics 1200>DJM-600>Fast Track Pro. Before recording I made sure to clean any dust off the records with a Carbon Fibre+Velvet Disc Cleaning Pad. These records have no scratches and have had minimal plays (below 10). I also made sure to clean off the stylus with a small brush that came with the cleaning pad to make sure there was no dust at all. I also recorded with the signal going into the DAW as close to 0db as possible without clipping.

After A/Bing all 3 tracks with their different signal paths meticulously, through speakers and two different sets of headphones, I hear no improvement to the sound quality in the signal chains with the J-33. I have decided that the pre-amp is most likely not the issue. I felt the Nagaoka MP-100 sounded a bit better than my old Nightclub E cartridge, but this could be from the simple fact that it is brand new. Also of note, the slight distortion in the high frequency range of vocals is still there, an issue I've had since the beginning. Adjusting the tracking force/anti skating did not fix this.

I am frustrated by these results. I know that sound from well treated vinyl with less than 10 plays and a brand new cartridge has to sound better than an mp3. The problem has to lie somewhere within my signal chain, but I am unsure where. I doubt the alignment is that big of an issue. I have not dealt with protractors, but I feel like using the overhang gauge should be sufficient enough for what I am doing. My only thoughts are...

Is there a better way to connect the outs of my DJM-600 rather than with the female XLR to TRS cables?

Perhaps the Analogue/Digital converters in the fast track just totally suck...

Could my issue be that I need a better mic pre than the ones on the Fast Track? Perhaps the Fast Track Pro is the weakest link in my signal chain and that is why my recordings sound flat, lacking in certain frequencies, and harsh in the top end.

I am at a loss and would really appreciate any suggestions. All this expensive equipment and it sounds better to just double click an mp3 file, it is very sad.

[Alec124c41]

A phono pre should feed into a line-level input, not a mike in.
Did you balance/zero the counterweight before dialing in the tracking force?

Cheers,
Alec

[Neosashi]

Thanks for helping me tackle this issue, Alec. Yes, I calibrated the weight to 0 before making adjustments. The output from my mixer and in the other two instances, from the J-33, were going from a female XLR>TRS into the Mic Insert of the Fast Track. There is a button to turn the Mic Inserts to line level. I had it pushed down, but are you saying I need to feed the outputs from the mixer/J-33 into the audio interface though White/Red RCA Cables? The Fast Track Does not allow for this to my knowledge. Below is a URL leading to a picture of the front and back of the Fast Track.

http://www.core-sound.com/FastTrackPro/1.php

[Alec124c41]

Give the protractors a shot. Having the cartridge properly aligned does make a difference, and it is not a hard job.
Remember that a longer radius makes a bigger circle, and v-v.
I can't comment on your other equipment, because I don't know it.
XLR or RCA - as long as the signal gets where it should, it's OK.

Cheers,
Alec

[Hanuman]

The first question I'd ask is "how does it sound 'live' through your system - i.e. bypassing all the digital stuff?" You need to get this evaluated before moving onto the digital system. Your turntable and cartridge should be very good.

Like Alec, I'm a bit iffy about using a mic input on your interface although I see that the Radial has an XLR mic output at 600Ω.

Do your listening tests all-analogue first and take it from there.

[Trackside]

Comparison to MP3 may not be valid as the master that created the Mp3 may not be the same as that which created the vinyl and typicaly loads of audio compression is done to digital ( mp3 and CD)to give it maximum 'loudness' so it sounds dynamic and exiting on consumer playback devices. MP3 gets a bad rep for these reasons more than I think it's inherent limitations and I have some good and bad sounding ones. Others have given good advice regarding listening direct to the analogue playback. I have an SL-1200 for digitising records and it's a very good tool for the job but what I have learnt is that the key to the best sound comes from it's correct setup with regards to cartridge and it's geometry and tracking force - any non optimisation or distortion here will never be recovered later on. There is a good protractor on this site specificaly for the Technics arm which is worth using. Also I find setting the tracking force to the upper limit of the recommended range is best. Also be aware that a new cart can sound pretty rough in the treble until it's had at least 10 hours or so of playing due to the stylus cantilever suspension needing to loosen up.

[kalypso]

There is a good protractor on this site specificaly for the Technics arm which is worth using

Good for usual cartridges, yes. But Neosashi uses ortofon nightclub cartridges, those are screwed directly to the tonearm without a headshell. Any alignment as with a usual cartridge is neither possible nor neccessary. Only balancing the tonearm and setting of VTF and VTA must be done when using this cartidges.

regards, kalypso

[Trackside]

There is a good protractor on this site specificaly for the Technics arm which is worth using

Good for usual cartridges, yes. But Neosashi uses ortofon nightclub cartridges, those are screwed directly to the tonearm without a headshell. Any alignment as with a usual cartridge is neither possible nor neccessary. Only balancing the tonearm and setting of VTF and VTA must be done when using this cartidges.

regards, kalypso

He replaced the DJ carts with a Nagaoka MP-100 - it's clearly stated in the OP initial post:wink:

[kalypso]

He replaced the DJ carts with a Nagaoka MP-100

Sorry. I didn't realize this. Pls. excuse me. In this case the protractor is a helpful tool indeed.

regards, kalypso

[Trackside]

No need to be sorry - alignment is crucial only if it's adjustable

[kalypso]

After thinking about the problem for a while, i would suggest to proceed as follows for a test:

Connect one of you turntables with the input of your phono preamp. Connect the phono preamp's RCA-outputs to the line-input of your pc-soundcard, usually this is a 3,5mm stero jack marked blue. Do not use the mic input.

At this point, you should be able to hear the sound of your turntable with your pc-speakers or headphones loud and clear when playing a record. If not, check if the line-input is activated in your soundcard settings.

Maybe the sound is distorted because the input is overdriven. In this case use a cable with damping elements (resistors) in it for the connection phono-preamp - PC. Those cables are available in computer shops.

For a test recording,any mp3-recording software can be used. I prefer No. 23 recorder because of its simplicity. It has a surface with VU-meters and buttons like on a tape recorder. Select the line-input of the soundcard, the mp3-resolution and the destination folder. Set recording level and thats it.

If the result is ok in the end, the problem must be somewhere in your dj-equipment, what i have got no idea about. But to me it sounds that any compnent is simply overdriven what might cause distortions.

Hope you can figure out whats wrong in the end.

regards, kalypso

[Trackside]

After thinking about the problem for a while, i would suggest to proceed as follows for a test:

Connect one of you turntables with the input of your phono preamp. Connect the phono preamp's RCA-outputs to the line-input of your pc-soundcard, usually this is a 3,5mm stero jack marked blue. Do not use the mic input.

At this point, you should be able to hear the sound of your turntable with your pc-speakers or headphones loud and clear when playing a record. If not, check if the line-input is activated in your soundcard settings.

Maybe the sound is distorted because the input is overdriven. In this case use a cable with damping elements (resistors) in it for the connection phono-preamp - PC. Those cables are available in computer shops.

For a test recording,any mp3-recording software can be used. I prefer No. 23 recorder because of its simplicity. It has a surface with VU-meters and buttons like on a tape recorder. Select the line-input of the soundcard, the mp3-resolution and the destination folder. Set recording level and thats it.

If the result is ok in the end, the problem must be somewhere in your dj-equipment, what i have got no idea about. But to me it sounds that any compnent is simply overdriven what might cause distortions.

Hope you can figure out whats wrong in the end.

regards, kalypso

Good advice - I record with the outboard phono preamp straight into the A/D converter to keep the signal path as simple as possible. Also if you are recording using Windows 7 the USB mic/aux sound level control has digital gain and needs setting at it's lowest level to bypass it.

[Neosashi]

Thank you all so much for the replies. At the suggestion of monitoring all of my signals before sending them to the computer, I hooked up a cd player into one of the channels of my DJM-600 and loaded it up with a CD containing an mp3 of one of the tracks I have on vinyl. I set up my cross-fader to cross-reference them throughout the track. I monitored though the headphone cue. With the inputs of both channels set to peak at around 0db the perceived loudness of both tracks sounded the same. I was not noticing any major differences between vinyl vs mp3 except for the high end distortion I have been getting on some vocal passages. I also noticed that the signal from the vinyl was reading a little more heavily on the right side of the stereo channel (this is actually something I have noticed for a while and it is not always the right side, it depends on what record/track is playing, I think). This did not seem to cause any panning issues as it still sounded very close to the CD I was playing in terms of stereo layout.

I uploaded a cut from the mp3 and the same cut from the vinyl recording after they have been recorded to my computer.

Mp3: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/82698953/Madon ... %20Cut.wav

Vinyl: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/82698953/Madon ... %20Cut.wav

If you will listen, you hear my problems with the high end near the end of the vinyl cut as her vocals distort. Like I said this happens before sending the signal into my computer. I also have noted what someone said about compression being used heavily on mp3s and I see that in my sequencer, when looking at the wave forms, the mp3 is squashed pretty heavily. Perhaps I am mistaking the extra perceived loudness that comes with the compression of the Mp3 as better sonic quality.

I do not have a sound card so I can not attempt to run a test like the one mentioned two posts above. The Fast Track Pro doubles as my sound card as I am running everything off of its ASIO. The fact that the Fast Track does not have any RCA inputs is why I am going XLR to TRS from my mixer, into the Fast Track.

In an attempt to fix the high end I will take a look at the protractors for the Technics 1200 tone arm. I doubt the distortion is happening because the cartridge is new, as the same distortion happens when the record is played with my old Nightclub E cartridges. Until then if anybody has any more suggestions I would greatly appreciate them.

[kalypso]

I heard a slightly difference between both recordings indeed.

The recording from vinyl has some sibiliance, clearly audible at the part "it's an illusion" with the "s" from "it's". The channel speparation isn't as clear as with the mp3-track too, for my ears.

This may be the result of poor pressing quality of the record,or they have used another master as for the source the mp3 was made from. Misalignment of the cartridge could as well cause this, but not with the ortofon cartidges.

Perhaps you've got the possibility to listen to the record with a hifi-setup for comparsion.

If the vinyl record is new, it maybe worth a try returning it to the store to get another copy.

I know this ins't helpful in the end, but i got no further idea how to solve this problem.

Good luck, kalypso