Cartridge for Technics SL-B20

[caucapon]

Hello,

Purchased my first TT today, A Technics SL-B20. My only experience with vinyl dates back at least fifty years to when I played my parent's console changer. This is truly a new experience for me.

To the best of my knowledge, the tonearm is original. The current cartridge is an Audio Technica LS350/LT. There is no stylus.

There seem to be few stylus choices for this cartridge. Those that I've uncovered are going for about $35. I had anticipated spending just a bit more than this for a new cartridge and significantly less for a run-of-the-mill stylus.

Is the current Audio Technica cartridge worth the $35 stylus investment, especially since I'm not really sure of the operational state of this cartridge, or would I be better served investing in a completely different cartridge/stylus combo?

Also, posters to several different audio forums have indicated that the Technics SL-B20 tonearm sports a "P" mount cartridge. A chart on the StereoManual's site indicates only that this TT has a removable cartridge. It does state that other Technics TTs have the "P" mount, but not the SL-B20. Can anyone here clear this up for a novice?

Thanks in advance for any info.

[Alec124c41]

The LS350/LT appears to be a P-mount, but there are adapters to use these on regular arms.
Technics usually used S-shaped arms, with a removable headshell, with the 1/2" mount cartridges, and straight arms with the P-mount cartridges. Seeing 2 screws in the top of the headshell is solid evidence of the standard 1/2" type.
Note that the price of a stylus is most of the cost of a cartridge.
I would be surprised if the cartridge were dead.

Cheers,
Alec

[caucapon]

The LS350/LT appears to be a P-mount, but there are adapters to use these on regular arms.
Technics usually used S-shaped arms, with a removable headshell, with the 1/2" mount cartridges, and straight arms with the P-mount cartridges. Seeing 2 screws in the top of the headshell is solid evidence of the standard 1/2" type.

Thank you for your explicit response. The current arm is straight. There are no top screws on the headshell. There is one lateral screw holding the cartridge in place. It appears that this setup is simple P-mount with no adapter.

Appreciate your taking the time and making the effort to give a thorough explanation.

Regards,
Allen

[Marcie]

It's a P-mount alright, or T4P as it's officially known. There's limited choice in new ones here. Ortofon has two (one an OM type, the other a High Output MC), I think Grado still has one, and Shure has the M92E. If it were me, I would go for a new one while they're still available. I have a Shure M92E (mind the 'E') in a Technics SL-DL5 and it sounds good for the money: typical old-skool Shure sound, warm, friendly, never harsh. You should be able to pick one up for around $40 on Amazon; a new stylus for your current cart won't be that much cheaper anyway.

Mind the 'E' in the type designation; it stands for elliptical stylus and is the better choice. There also spherical and 78rpm styli available.

[Alec124c41]

T4P cartridges http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
Note the Shure M92E for $26.95.

Cheers,
Alec

[lini]

Allen: Yup, your SL-B20 is a T4P/P-Mount model. And your LS350/LT basically was a renamed AT102EP - a pretty good catridge body with an entry-level elliptical needle. However, you could easily upgrade it with one of the higher quality needles for the higher ranking models of that family (which consisted of the AT102P, 102EP, 112EP, 122EP, 122LP, 132EP, 142LP, 152LP and finally the 152MLP). To make it short, the first three are just average quality, while the next two already are a good bit better - and the last four are the really good ones. Stereoneedles still lists the ATN132EP as in stock for not quite 70 bucks, which would still be a pretty attractive price for a high quality needle in that class (talking about a nice, nude diamond with rectagular shank and sharp, true elliptical tip on tapered alu cantilever in this case - which in the Ortofon realm would sort between the needles 20 and 30 (which are quite a good bit more expensive due to still being in production, though...).

Well, and if you'd like to make sure that the AT body still works: Do you happen to have a digital multimeter (if not, decent models aren't expensive anymore - and it never harms to have one...)? Then you could simply measure the resistance of the coils/coil-set via the output pins, in order to check, whether the body is still electically ok - other than than there isn't much that could be broken on that body, unless someone would have put it under a steamroller or something like that. I.e., if it measured ok and you couldn't detect andy gross mechanical damage, investment in a new (respectively new old stock in this case) needle would be a very safe bet, no worries...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

P.S.: Another budget alternative besides the Shure M92E would be the AT92E(CD), which funnily enough in the US is often enough cheaper than its replacement needle (ATN92E alias ATN3472SE or ATN311EP) alone.

[Marcie]

T4P cartridges http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
Note the Shure M92E for $26.95.

Cheers,
Alec

Wow, that really is a good price! You can't go wrong with this one, except when you're an AT fan like lini; the AT's are very different from the Shure. Germans s(h)ure love AT's!

The standard cart for the Technics 'table appears to have been the Technics EPC24. I still have one, the Shure is way better, though.

BTW, the Shure M92E comes with an adapter (bracket); with it, the cart can also be used in an arm/headshell with standard 1/2" mount (officially called "Retma"). So should you decide to move on to such a 'table in the future, you can still use the Shure. There are other carts (one from Ortofon I think) that include the adapter too.

[dlaloum]

The LS350 you have there is a cartridge body on a par with the current Audio Technica AT120, AT440 and AT150 cartridges - it just happens to be the p-mount version of the family.

You can fit the cartridge with authentic audio technica p-mount styli such as:
http://www.turntableneedles.com/search. ... &search=GO

Or you can use the styli for the 1/2" mount versions which will also fit:
http://www.turntableneedles.com/search. ... &search=GO

Note that the 1/2" mount versions are likely to require an adjustment to the tracking force, but I believe that the TT has a tracking adjustment knob on the back of the arm (at the counterweight).
With the 1/2" styli fitted the cartridge will be a touch heavier and will be tracking a little higher (by about 0.2g) so you may need to get a stylus force gauge or digital scale (I picked my digital scale up for all of $20!) to get a proper measure of your tracking force.
With the proper p-mount styli, the tracking force will automatically be correct at 1.25g (and the styli are designed for an arm of that mass too - so matching is pretty much guaranteed)

The styli do range from very ordinary, to superlatively excellent.... and which stylus you choose can completely transform the cartridge.
I have this cartridge, and fitted with the ATN152LP it is a truly excellent cartridge, competitive with the current AT150MLX, and providing performance on a par with cartridges costing in the 000's of $
http://www.stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html

Other options:

Shure M92e - cheap, stylus quality relatively ordinary, body is the same as the M97xE except in p-mount version, fitted with the N97xE stylus it gets an instant substantial performance upgrade! - Fitted with a Jico SAS ($180 - not cheap) it becomes a serious high end cartridge - the N97xE and SAS (http://www.turntableneedles.com/JICO-SA ... _3953.html) are likely to require some adjustment of the tracking force as per the 1/2" Audio Technica styli mentioned above... Although I find the SAS stylus on my Shure P-mount coincidentally ends up spot on... I am not sure whether the N97xE would as well, mostly due to it being a heavier stylus holder. (the SAS is a bit lighter than the Shure OEM)
With the SAS stylus in place this cartridge is competitive with the AT150MLX or Nagaoka MP500 - very serious competition!

Audio Technica AT92E
This cartridge is from the series below the LS350 - a more basic range, of which the AT95 is the 1/2" version (look them up lots of reviews!)
The AT92 is a nice budget cartridge, better in standard form than the M92e (in my opinion) there are also upgrade styli available for it having HyperEliptical, VividLine, Shibata, or Microline needles (ranging from $70 to $150).
At its best with the best stylus options, I do not believe it would match the M92e fitted with the Jico SAS.

Ortofon OMP10/20/30/40 and TM14
This family of Ortofon bodies can be fitted with any member of the OM family of styli.
The OMP20 and up are excellent cartridges, I have both the 20 and 30 - the 30 is noticeably better...

Digitrak 300SE
This is an Ortofon OM30 made under another brandname and sold at a cheaper price - you could still pick them up online 6 months ago, but they may all be gone now - and OM30 at less than half the price (I paid $70 for mine, later prices climbed to $150 - still half the price of an OM30)
If you can find one it is an excellent and great value cartridge.


There are other vintage p-mount cartridges like your LS350 which can be found, for which styli are still available - these can often be great value...

The Technics EPC24 as an example - has a laminated core in the body (which improves high frequency performance... and usually only appears on premium cartridges) - the standard needle is OK, but you can fit a Jico SAS to this one too.... the combination is quite high end!

There are Stanton and Pickering P-mount bodies, for which several manufacturers still make needles. (Make sure you purchase from reputable brand as the needle quality does vary!) These can be excellent - and are the traditional competitors to Shure.

There are many more - but it does take some effort hunting them down, researching needles and capabilities, etc...

Hope that Helps

David

[lini]

Marcie: Actually I'm more a fan of all good cartridges than an explicit AT fan. In fact I think I've actually got even more Philips than AT carts in my collection (plus a couple of Shures, Ortofons, Nagaokas, ADCs, B&Os, Technicses- and exactly one Stanton ). Oh, and it's not like Shure wouldn't have a big fanbase over here, too...

Anyway, in this case we have a user over in the US with an SL-B20 (decent entry-level-class T4P belt-drive radial tracker) and decent middle-class AT T4P MM body with the extra plus of being compatible to a very wide range of AT and Signet needles, ranging from entry-level up to lower top-class, of which a few still happen to be available for pretty attractive prices and that even from US vendors. So going for the ATN132EP for 70 bucks to me would simply seem the best option for Allen at the moment - 'cause he probably won't be able to find the Digitrac 300SE, which would be very similar in quality, for less anymore. And the Shure M92E would be quite a bit lower class (one would rather have to upgrade that with an N110HE to reach a similar quality level...).

Shall mean: My recommendation isn't based on a special love for AT carts in this case, but rather on happy coincidence. For example, if Allen instead would have happened to already have a Philips ELM series T4P body, I would have rather suggested him to consider the matching GP351 SST needle, which Pick-upnaalden still appears to offer for not quite 75 Euro.

Well, and I've mentioned the AT92E(CD) as another low budget alternative to the M92E, 'cause that often enough can be found in the US for just 20 bucks, quality-wise is at least as good as the Shure and also comes with halfinch-mount adaptor - and there would also exist higher quality needles to upgrade it later on, as David already wrote above. So I thought that it was worth to be mentioned, too...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[Marcie]

Marcie: Actually I'm more a fan of all good cartridges than an explicit AT fan. In fact I think I've actually got even more Philips than AT carts in my collection (plus a couple of Shures, Ortofons, Nagaokas, ADCs, B&Os, Technicses- and exactly one Stanton ). Oh, and it's not like Shure wouldn't have a big fanbase over here, too...

Anyway, in this case we have a user over in the US with an SL-B20 (decent entry-level-class T4P belt-drive radial tracker) and decent middle-class AT T4P MM body with the extra plus of being compatible to a very wide range of AT and Signet needles, ranging from entry-level up to lower top-class, of which a few still happen to be available for pretty attractive prices and that even from US vendors. So going for the ATN132EP for 70 bucks to me would simply seem the best option for Allen at the moment - 'cause he probably won't be able to find the Digitrac 300SE, which would be very similar in quality, for less anymore. And the Shure M92E would be quite a bit lower class (one would rather have to upgrade that with an N110HE to reach a similar quality level...).

Shall mean: My recommendation isn't based on a special love for AT carts in this case, but rather on happy coincidence. For example, if Allen instead would have happened to already have a Philips ELM series T4P body, I would have rather suggested him to consider the matching GP351 SST needle, which Pick-upnaalden still appears to offer for not quite 75 Euro.

Well, and I've mentioned the AT92E(CD) as another low budget alternative to the M92E, 'cause that often enough can be found in the US for just 20 bucks, quality-wise is at least as good as the Shure and also comes with halfinch-mount adaptor - and there would also exist higher quality needles to upgrade it later on, as David already wrote above. So I thought that it was worth to be mentioned, too...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Ah Manfred, I wasn't being personal. But I did actually notice that AT's are generally very popular in Germany. Personally, I'm not a great fan of AT, with the exception of carts like the OC9. Most budget AT's that I know or own are, IMHO, bland-sounding, not spacious let alone with any degree of dimensionality. Some, however, have astounding powerful, well-defined bass, but for me that's not enough. I don't think the AT92 is as good as the Shure M92E, which I think is an underrated cart and I do not agree with your assessment of its sound quality. It may not be entirely neutral as it is a tad warm sounding, but with smooth treble and some sort of spaciousness, never harsh or grating. At the price Alec came up with, it is unbeatable, and even at full retail, it takes quite some beating. And, if you like the old Shure sound, this is the one to get.

The original Technics cart, EPC24 (or was it the EPC23?), came with a spherical stylus as standard and laminated core or not (I rather doubt it as the SL-B20 was Technics' cheapest table at the time and came with that cart), is a piece of c*. And yes, I do own one.

Nice though the SL-B20 is, it is a budget table, at the bottom of Technics' line-up at the time. Spending more than $70 on a cart for that 'table would be a kind of waste, except when trading up and keeping the cart to migrate to a better 'table in the (near) future. That $70 would be the absolute max for the Technics table, IMO. It troubles me when people are recommending carts that are way too expensive for such 'tables, to people who seek advice and guidance.

As an aside, I see here on the VE forums, people (and I don't mean Manfred) glorifying or bashing carts that they don't own, or have, in fact, never heard at all. That's a bit worrying. But, like I said before, that's just me.

[dlaloum]

The original Technics cart, EPC24 (or was it the EPC23?), came with a spherical stylus as standard and laminated core or not (I rather doubt it as the SL-B20 was Technics' cheapest table at the time and came with that cart), is a piece of c*. And yes, I do own one.

You are severely underestimating that bodies potential.

The EPC22/23/24/28/33/54/128/etc... all used the exact same body - all that varied was the stylus!

At the top of the line was the EPC202 with hollow boron tube cantilever... among the lowest effective moving mass cartridges ever made - due to that magical cantilever.

And yes - through the magic of mass production all cartridges in the entire series had laminated cores.

But if you run it with a cheapie stylus it will sound like a cheapie cartridge.

The most important thing in the performance of ANY cartridge is the cantilever, in second place the needle and in third place the generator/body...

In this example the body is very good as well... but you would have to try it with something like a SAS fitted...

bye for now

David

[lini]

Marcie: No worries, I didn't take it personal - just thought I should explain my recommendation a bit further...

As for the EPC-P24S: I also had that back then on my SL-5, and to me it sounded not all that bad, but nevertheless somewhat bland (the Stanton 500EIII that came with my Thorens TD280II managed to sound even blander, though ). I was a beginner back then and not yet aware that I could have just as well upgraded it with a 22 or 202 needle, so I upgraded the SL-5 with an AT132EP instead - which I was very happy with, especially as that combo to my ears easily beat my stepfather's more expensive Braun PS550 with Shure M95ED.

Well, and as for the M92E: I don't have one of these in my own collection, but two of the higher ranking M99Es of the same family - and to my ears even these are still a good bit away from the quality level of the AT132EP...

But, yup, I wouldn't suggest to spend too much on a cartridge (or replacement/upgrade needle) for an SL-B20 either. Some US$ 70 to 100 would seem a reasonable maximum - but with rising tendency, as cartridge and needles prices have already gone up quite a bit in the last couple of years.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

[Marcie]

The original Technics cart, EPC24 (or was it the EPC23?), came with a spherical stylus as standard and laminated core or not (I rather doubt it as the SL-B20 was Technics' cheapest table at the time and came with that cart), is a piece of c*. And yes, I do own one.

The most important thing in the performance of ANY cartridge is the cantilever, in second place the needle and in third place the generator/body...
David

Well, the EPC24 does not have a boron cantilever, so...

I wouldn't agree anyway, it's the total combination of all parts, not just the cantilever. If pressed, I would say generator & stylus, not the cantilever but I may be wrong. And yes, my Ace S does have a boron cantilever, it sounds very good but I would not put it down to the cantilever. Take, for example, the Ortofon Cadenza series. The cheapest one (still 800 quid though) has an aluminium cantilever, yet it equals the sound quality of my boron Benz, and for some it surpasses the Ace. What's more, the sound quality of the cheapest Cadenza is actually quite close to the more expensive ones...

The Technics EPC24 (23?) on the SL-B20 came with a cheap spherical stylus, even original replacements were cheap. Next step up is an elliptical stylus, still cheap. My EPC has the latter (original replacement). IMO, in absolute terms it sounds rather matter-of-fact, low-rent definition/resolution, neither much treble nor bass extension, poor imaging. I have a few other Technics carts, with more or less the same traits. I'm sorry if I have offended your love of Technics carts, but it is just my opinion, not scientific fact. But who knows, at least you have inspired me to try it again some time, in a different 'table with a Retma adapter. Just to prove myself wrong, and I just love fiddling with carts!

It may very well be that the EPC202 you mention is a fantastic cart, I haven't auditioned it as far as I know. A friend has a SL-10 with the original Technics MC cart (EPC310?) which sounds quite good, though.