Denon DL-304 - Gain & loading questions

[krenzler]

Hi VE members.

I'm on the lookout for a mid-price MC to partner with my RB700 tonearm.

I have my sight set on the DL-304 as it seems like very good value and priced ($455) near the maximum of what I'm prepared to pay at this time. Other contenders like Dyna 20X2L, Benz ACE SL, Orto Rondo Bronze, DV-17D3, DL-S1 etc. are a bit too expensive I'm afraid.

The DL-304 would be used together with CineMag CMQEE-3440a SUT & Graham Slee Era Gold Reflex MM phono. The Reflex has 41.5dB gain and the 3440a gives either 24dB (1:16/184 ohm) or 30dB (1:30/52 ohm). According to Bob's Devices homepage.

So considering the low output of the Denon (0.18-0.20mV) and its high internal impedance of 40 ohm I'm wondering if this will work or not. Either the gain will be 66dB with 184 ohm loading OR 72dB with 52 ohm loading. I understand that the high internal impedance of 40 ohm reduces the output further and also makes it more sensitive to loading..

My concern is that the Denon could end up sounding slightly thin and/or lacking in PUNCH due to less than optimal gain/loading.. I know that this will never be a "beefy" sounding cartridge (like DL-103/103R) but from what I've read it has a nice "liquid" midrange and a beguiling homogeneity top-to-bottom - given proper circumstance.

So current (or former) DL-304 users - what are your experiences regarding load and gain? Anyone use the DL-304 with CineMag SUT? Any input is highly appreciated.

An entirely different option is the DL-103R (which should work well with CineMag) but I prefer a finer/smaller stylus that the conical and can't tolerate sssibilance or IGD - great as the 103R might be (I do actually listen more to modern rock/pop than I do classical..).

[abril]

I would have said the 184ohm option should be near ideal.
16 times multiplier should give you a near standard 3mV output and into an active stage I generally use around 200ohms for the 304,so I would say give it a go!

[Cobra2]

I had great sound with the 304 on a 70dB gain RIAA @ 100 ohm

Arne K

[krenzler]

Thanks abril & Arne.

Yes, the 1:16 tap ought to give enough gain.

How do you think it handles more robust rock music (like Led Zeppelin for example)?

Any of you listened to both the 304 & the 103R?

[abril]

Very clean throughout the range,very slightly warm balance,I use it on a Mission 774 original mounted on a Pink Triangle PT1 and it gives a very tight,perhaps slightly light balance,on the RB700 I would expect it to give a slightly fuller sound.

[krenzler]

Thanks.

[abril]

I have my sight set on the DL-304 as it seems like very good value and priced ($455)

Have you seen this
http://www.phonophono.de/Ydenon_dl304_4_e.php3?Kennung=

and a read of this to help
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/ ... xplai.html

[resu]

For many years I have used DL-304 in Rega P9/900 and Lehman Black Cube SE, max gain (66dB) and 100ohms. IMHO very neutral and beats cd easily - at least subjectively - on those recordings that I have both in cd and Lp form. This is really a best-buy find cart!
I have a quite revealing and analytic but natural sounding system.

[Hanuman]

With a SUT in circuit the influence of the reflected load manifests a bit differently compared to the equivalent load of a direct input active pre-amp. The inter-relationship between load and high frequency performance is less apparent (if it's there at all) so it usually gets down to gain only and I agree that the 24dB tap is probably suitable for almost anything. I run a variety of cartridges into my Ortofon Verto at its 24dB setting. It's the "safer" setting, I believe. I've had a couple of situations (with different transformers) where the highest turns-ratio resulted in an effect a lot like mis-tracking or overload - an artefact that disappeared when switching down to a lower-gain setting.

[krenzler]

abril: Interesting and informative links - thanks. Hadn't seen the good PhonoPhono price. Saves the "hassle" of importing from Hong Kong.

Thanks resu & Hanuman - seems that anything at (or above) 100 ohm will be fine. Even though many seem to recommend 10x the cartridge source impedance.

[abril]

Hadn't seen the good PhonoPhono price. Saves the "hassle" of importing from Hong Kong.

Wondered where you were planning to get it from.
Not really worth importing if you get stung for import tax and VAT

The inter-relationship between load and high frequency performance is less apparent (if it's there at all) so it usually gets down to gain only

The seen load is proportional to the input impedance of the phono stage divided by the square of the turns ratio

[willb]

I've had 2 DL-304's over the years and used them with SUT's, Head Amp's and normal MC inputs. It generally works through anything as long as the phono stage has enough gain/sensitivity.

Sugden integrated has 100r input impedance and 0.15mv sensitivity so all ok.

QED battery head amp has slots for loading resistors (470R open) and capacitors.
This then plugs-in to MM phono at 47k. Think I used 100R/47R resistors fitted which gave actual load of 80ish and about 43. Haven't used it for years but did work well with very high sens. Switch on front is X24 or X50 so would give 5-10 mv into MM stage with 0,2mv in.
QED gave calculation as:
100x470 = 47000
470-100 = 370 = 127R for 100ohm load, so 120 is nearest.

40x470 = 18800
470-40 = 430 = 43.7R for 40 ohm load, so 47 is nearest.

Audio Innovations 800 SUT is the best though. Not exactly sure what step-up ratio is but it was designed for the Audio Note IO which has much lower output then the Denon. I run it with load of 270-330k resistors (switchable on pre-amp) and has 2 secondary windings. I think it gives approx. 38 ohms(lower winding) and 50 ohms (higher winding), when using the higher (330k) load at pre-amp.

The lower setting 150k, (or 270k across 330K), is ideal for ATOC5 and gives about 10/22 ohms which is spot-on. The AT has twice the output of the DL304 so plays a lot louder, but Denon still has plenty of output if you load it fairly high (with resistor after SUT).

Another thing I found was that some cables can roll-off the treble due to high capacitance! Not many do luckily but it's worth knowing.

Interestingly it was quite well received in this month's HiFi World MC cartridge test, despite being 20 years old!

Note to ABRIL: have you seen this month's Olde Worlde feature?

[abril]

Note to ABRIL: have you seen this month's Olde Worlde feature?

Nope

But heard some rumour about some 774 or something being featured

[krenzler]

Interestingly it was quite well received in this month's HiFi World MC cartridge test, despite being 20 years old!

Yep, did quite well. Only negative was the low output. It bettered Ortofon Rondo Blue, Audio Technica OC9/III and Goldring Legacy. Was only ousted by Benz ACE SL and the group winner VdH DDT-II (most expensive by some margin).