Cheeky I know ....but thought I would try my own....

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

Is there anyone who could make and sell me one of these isolators? I'm interested to try one but too cack handed to make it myself and not rich enough to risk GBP85 on something that might not have a benificial sonic effect. My turntable (Audiomeca Romance) is semi-suspended and the arm (Audiomeca Romeo) is a uni-pivot. I use a Goldring 1042 MM cart.

[Gerard]

John
Do you have any nuts?......ideally alloy ones which you can Araldite to the plate? (The old cheapy ones which come with cartridges are ideal or SS ones.)
If so....can you glue them on....or send them to me and I will make you a plate etc. (sorry I have none left.)
Also an idea of the the size of the top of the cartridge....if you could draw around it, or measure the length....just so I know what size to make.
Regards
Gerard

[Rob42]

A wee update
have spent some time with a couple of materials and different thickness's.

with about 4mm ,the cart wont track too well.
neoprene has to be 'squished' very flat before the cart will sit well against the arm and track. and in the end isnt worth the effort.

staying with the butyl material - I thinned it down to about 1mm , on the way down to this thickness,the sound stage began to 'tighten up ' but did not loose its air or new found middle. Not going to play with this anymore,as enjoying it too much and dont want to loose it or the sonics

[bastlnut]

i have been tossing around this idea in my head since this thread started. this thread opened up the theory of set up synergy that is always strive for. there has been a lot said about groove noise, and then a bit said about 'air' and 'focus' (tightening up). this is one thing that is always commented on by my clients, the lack of groove noise, clicks and pops. the focus is also a big 2nd in comments.
as far as air is concerned:
euphonics are another way of adding 'air' to the playback quality. nelson pass does this with his 'x ono' phono stage. (quote from a hifi choice review i remember-dont know when it was though) and i can confirm the additional 'air' it seems to give. this does not mean the playback is accurate, just sounds more inviting. tubes can do this too if the euphonics are not reined in.
as some may already get, i think it is a form of resonance feedback that is causing this. it is also a sort of feedback that makes the clicks and pops more audible. for those with an SME arm, not overtightening the base onto the armboard will help with reducing groove noise. that is, the rubber gromets should not bulge above the screw. also, not overtightening the cartridge mounting screws will allow the isolation built into the cartridge by the designer to work properly.

i have the feeling that this tweek is just a fix for incorrectly setup players. some of the mistakes i mentioned above. we use spikes and other isolation devises under our amps and cd players, and tt's. also special racks for our components. we do not know what the designers used for tables (lab and listening room) when they were fine tuning the component. we know it makes a difference what we set our components on. some like stone, others wood, others balloons.

back to the topic:
if a mat can do what this isolation plate does;

ok whats going on here.
I put together an isolator using some butyl based damper material (its a tad thick...)
now I have been using Funks isolation mat on the platter and noticed a reduction in surface noise. The cart isolator seems to have done the same thing,a reduction in surface noise along with a general improvement in sonic clearity.

then it is a sort of proof that it breaks the feedback cycle that amplifies the groove noise. every designer has his method of doing this. now i think it has bacome a lost art of system set up that makes a market for such a product. if there were still hifi stores near by that has the know how to install a system in someones home, then we wouldn't have to learn for ourselves what all the 'dinasours' know. we would gladly have a 'dinasour' setup our system for us. this is the price we pay for our 'pay as little as possible' mentality that has driven all the specialty stores out of bussiness.
set up right, we wouldn't need this isolator. for those of us that don't have the knowledge, this isolator could be a godsend.

[Rob42]

I wouldnt call the gents that set my pink trianlge a dino - but know turntables they do. They did sqeeze a tad more out of the player than I did, but the mat and isolator seem to have squeezed out more.
why - the feedback idea you mentioned bastlnut maywell what is going on .

I'm after a setup (vinyl or cd ) is one which I can switch on,warm up, sit down to and just Enjoy! am not into snake oil ( been there done that) but am willing to give almost anything a try or make up my own answer {have many cables which I have tried}

what I have now is the most engaging sonics ,which to my ears sounds very life like. we all hear things differently. an open sonic to me may be bright for the next guy.

Give it a go,then feedback what you have found

[Gerard]

Hey Rob.....glad you are enkoying it
What is this butyl material you are using....where did you get it from?

what I have now is the most engaging sonics ,which to my ears sounds very life like

I totally agree and concur with this....I was listening to ablums yesterday which did not usually have me tapping my toes....I don't how else to say it but it seems to do the job for me!
I'm happy!

All I can say is give it a go.....nothing to loose!!
Gerard

[Blue Angel]

Hi All

I have nothing against trying out something different and even less against making something for yourself when prices for gadgets are too high.

I do believe however, that by adding yet another compliance to a cartridge can only be a 'false cure' for an underlying problem inherent in cartridge and arm matching, poor set-up or a badly designed cartridge - particularly inadequate damping or too low a compliance.

The only way to confirm for yourself what this gadget actually does, is to get hold of some of Shure's excellent test records (the ERA series). If you have any of these, play particularly the last track on side one - the bass drum test. Play this track with and without this gadget and hear for yourself what precisely happens.

My guess is that things will go much 'looser' with badly defined transients.

In other words, this gadget will mask the correct sound from your records.

I have the facilities and the materials to make such a thing and measure the results but cannot do so immediately. When I get a chance, I will do so and report my findings.

Derivatives of butyl rubber are widely used in cartridge manufacture. This material usually cannot be bought ready and 'off the shelf'. My own butyl material was especially developed for me by a firm specialising in rubber technology.

If you want to continue experimenting with this thing, car wheel inner tubing contains a quantity of butyl rubber, whether it will contain enough to achieve a measure of damping, I would not know.

Regards to all

Blue Angel

[Rob42]

Gerry
the material is from a damping mat which is used the stop vibrations within our simulators upsetting the computers.

I pop some in the post - can't spot your address,could you pm it to me.

Rob

[Gerard]

Hey Rob
I got the butyl...thanks.
Heaver and denser than I thought, so it will be interesting to give it a go!

Jon
Have recieved the iso-later? What do you think?


Gerard

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

The isolater turned up on Friday, thanks Gerard. I've set it up and it's made a difference but I'm not sure it's entirely positive. Music does sound more musical and simple open recordings do seem to have more 'air' but it starts going a bit blurry when things get complicated or too loud. I have a spare cart so I'm going to switch back and decide which I prefer.
I'm using a Goldring 1042 (MM) cart on an Audiomeca Romeo uni-pivot arm. The deck is an Audiomeca Romance which is semi suspended.

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

A follow up to my last post: I took the isolater off and everything sounded much better, more focussed and tight. I wonder if as my arm's a unipivot it doesn't need this. It has a small amount of 'bearing slop' that conventional gimbal arms don't.
Still, it was an interesting experiment. Thanks Gerard for the help. How are you getting on with the butyl rubber?

[bauzace50]

This is just to reflect Blue Angel's opinion, with my own opinion. Introducing another compliance into the sequence of materials might only produce additional problems.
This, of course, is only an opinion without actual experimentation. Echoing Blue Angel, also, the best would be just to try it.
I, however, have many other things to merely try something which strikes me as highly improbable. Good for you, if you discover the better five cent cigar...
In this particular case, I will be happy to let others experiment, and will happily jump on the bandwagon when proof is presented.

[argibbo]

Coo. liquorice alsort damping! Think we can do better than that!

Just as an experiment I tried removing my London Gold from the arm. So far so good. Can't get more isolated than that. Having returned to my seat still clutching the Decca I realised there was little or no chance of the stylus making contact with the groove.. The three wires dangling in the headshell only re-inforced the notion that something was not right. I re-balanced the arm and the wires no longer dangled. Now they scraped the surface of the vinyl. Still no sound from the speakers. Then I realised the Decca was not connected to the pre amp. Quick fix needed. Taking careful aim, I threw the cartridge straight at the arm. Oh, audio nirvana. For just a brief moment the three pins on the London must have contacted the wires in the arm in the correct sequence. Perfect sound. I quite distinctly heard the sound of a Decca London Gold hitting the wall behind the turntable. Not too bright, no mis-tracking, just pure clean sound. My aim must have been off though as the moment was gone as quick as it came. I sat there stunned. Then it dawned on me. Unfortunately the cartridge needs to be connected directly to the pre amp and mounted as rigidly as possible in the arm. That way vibrations in the groove are absorbed directly by the stylus/generator assembly and not wasted by moving the cartridge body relative to the arm. damn. Thought I had the answer. Recovered the Decca, re-mounted it in the arm and sat back to listen to the beguiling midrange and mistracking on signal peaks. Home again, back in the real world!

[argibbo]

"It's all in the mind"

This is so true. If you'd just spent £500 on an upgrade you'd be listening for £500's worth of difference as you sat back down in the sweet spot. You're bound to hear a difference. A subtle psychoacoustic change has taken place. Your wallet is £500 lighter .This hurts. Your brain is only trying to alleviate the pain. Your ears are straining to hear £500 quids worth of difference. The power of suggestion alone is enough to convince you that a beneficial change has taken place in your system. Never mind that you have to justify the expenditure to her indoors. If you've spent £500 and can't hear the difference she might just as well have had that new dishwasher/fridge/freezer/pool attendant. Better to play along and talk up the improvement your new sound absorbing doo dah has made rather than thinking a new kitchen thingy might shut her up long enough so you can enjoy your music in peace!