Denon Dl-103r Any Users Here?

[blakep]

Bauzace: Peter at Soundsmith essentially has 3 retip services (well, a bit more but we'll keep it simple here ), all of which include new cantilevers:

1) a $150 retip with an aluminum cantilever and elliptical stylus
2) a $250 retip with a ruby cantilever and line contact stylus
3) a $350 retip with a ruby cantilever and "Optimized Contour" line contact stylus.

Both option 2 and 3 use the same cantilever. The difference is that the Optimized Countour stylus is a more radical/extreme line contact. It is supposed to be more detailed but Peter admits that it is much more finicky in terms of setup, which has to be pretty much perfect in terms of VTA/SRA and azimuth.

I have no experience with the Optimized Contour stylus. I opted for version 2 above as I read some comments online from someone that stated they had heard both versions and felt that, while the Optimized Contour stylus dug out perhaps a bit more detail that it may have sacrificed a bit of "musicality" at the same time. I also do not have VTA on the fly, nor do I want to get into VTA on the fly, so from my perspective, I felt the $250 retip would be better for me as a "set and forget" kind of guy.

The $250 SS line contact retip is much more refined and extended in the high frequencies with my 103R. There is no question about that. The more extreme line contact has the possibility of taking it even further I suppose and Peter does emphasize the "high frequency peformance and imaging" of the more extreme stylus profile on the website.

I'm happy with the $250 option and that is what I would do again, but that is me personally.

I think I may have stated earlier that I track my retipped 103R at exactly the same VTF that I tracked the stock conical: 2.6 grams.

If I do track it lower, the cartridge becomes a detail champion but (to me anyway) loses the Denon magic: that bottom to top coherence and solidity that is really the trademark of the cartridge. While most are very happy with their retips from SS, I do think you find the odd person that finds the "new" cartridge to be a bit over the top in perhaps "emphasizing" high frequencies; I am only guessing, but I would expect that of the people who do have a problem with the cartridge, many are tracking at much lower levels resulting in a very different sound.

In any event, I am very happy with my cartridge. Happy enough to not feel the need to buy or experiment with anything else. IMO, a rebodied 103 or 103R with a SS retip is one of the huge bargains in our hobby.

[AudioSoul]

The thing the bothers me about the first two retips is that SS uses the same cantiliver but cuts it off and glues a new canti. with stylus over the the old canti. stub. That adds another joint and I would imagine changes the sound somewhat.........

[bauzace50]

@ john guest,

thanks for the information. I am seriously considering the retip only (diamond tip only) because SoundSmith did the ruby cantilever and tip for my Stanton 500 EE Mk II a couple of years back. And this was only a partial success.

The part I did not like was a very slight extra treble personality on ALL the treble. Very nice silver lining, which sounds "hi-fi" but is not true to life.

SO, after many years of finding out for myself, without any persons' testimonials, I am tired of "doing it myself". My motto was to find out for myself. But no more. Now, I've got to watch all my expenses so that each one goes for a precisely defined barter. No more chances.

I don't want to pay for retipping the DL-103R, only to find out it will develop a treble resonance (however mild it may be). This time it has to be "fail safe". That's why I am requesting testimonials from those who have been there.

As of this moment, I did a comparison of one LP side on the DL-103R, and on the Stanton 881S. This particular LP side has lots of Beethoven massed strings ( 3rd and 4th movement of Symphony #4) which came out more naturally and true-to-life through the 881S. The 103R rendered them with an euphonious shining "hi-fi personality" which is not on the originals. More experiments need to be done. But I've got a hunch the 881S will not be de-throned in my mind.

Please let me know about the above questions,

THANKYOU,
bauzace50

@ Audio Soul,

cantilever replacements are always that way. I call them "pirate's wooden leg", if you've seen "pirates in the movies. I've had two "pirate's legs" on two of my cartridges, and had one on loan (done by Mr. van den Hul himself) which never satisfied me. And the three shortcomings were the same on the three cartridges: some degree of treble resonance added to the original. That's why I mistrust "pirates's legs", on the basis of three cartridges I played extensively in my own home.

[john guest]

After I tried straightening the cantilever from my Grand daughters mishap, I snapped it off whole ,right where it hits the first pole piece , My 103 is joined with a full cantilever.

Regards,
JohnG.

[bauzace50]

But a retip, in strict terms, is ONLY the replacement of the diamond tip. I've had this done several times by Expert Stylus. And, I've also had the cantilever replacement. Which are two different processes, but Soundsmith apparently offers the entire cantilever substitution only.

Regards,
b50

[Ldg]

IMO its a great shame to overlook fundamental merits of the original 103/103r stylus/cantilever. There's great heritage, and performance there.

I don't doubt retips and cantilever swaps can have their own merits, but then it's a different animal. Somewhat defeats the point.

When the day comes and useful hours (or damage !) is done, that's another matter. But pedigree of the original has its own place, and it's not even worth thinking about on a week old 103r, at least as I see it !

[blakep]

But a retip, in strict terms, is ONLY the replacement of the diamond tip. I've had this done several times by Expert Stylus. And, I've also had the cantilever replacement. Which are two different processes, but Soundsmith apparently offers the entire cantilever substitution only.

Regards,
b50

Soundsmith will replace only the diamond tip as well. You can contact them for more info.

[bauzace50]

@ ld,

YES! That is absolutely pertinent! Please know that inquiries as to eventual possibilities are merely for evaluating alternatives in the far future! Maybe three years! The product is very well designed, and the result of refinements over 40 years' Denon experience.

It will be used with full respect and celebration of its original status for (at least) three years.

@blakep,
thanks for information about the tip only. Expert Stylus mean this when they say tip replacement. So, now we know the language of the market vendors, so to speak.
Thanks,
b50

[AudioSoul]

bauzace50 it is great that you are seeking others opinions but that to can be flawed. I went the other way, I trusted others opinions and was never satisfied. You should take others opinions with a grain of salt. Mine included. Their are so many diverse opinions and pregudises that they can't be trusted fully. I am not saying that anyone is trying to lead you astray there are many knowlagable people on this forum and others. A good example is that I gave a great recomendation for the 103R bases upon the music that I listen to (not classical) and you tried the 103R with classical and was not impressed.......

[EdAInWestOC]

@ john guest,

thanks for the information. I am seriously considering the retip only (diamond tip only) because SoundSmith did the ruby cantilever and tip for my Stanton 500 EE Mk II a couple of years back. And this was only a partial success.

The part I did not like was a very slight extra treble personality on ALL the treble. Very nice silver lining, which sounds "hi-fi" but is not true to life.

SO, after many years of finding out for myself, without any persons' testimonials, I am tired of "doing it myself". My motto was to find out for myself. But no more. Now, I've got to watch all my expenses so that each one goes for a precisely defined barter. No more chances.

I don't want to pay for retipping the DL-103R, only to find out it will develop a treble resonance (however mild it may be). This time it has to be "fail safe". That's why I am requesting testimonials from those who have been there.

As of this moment, I did a comparison of one LP side on the DL-103R, and on the Stanton 881S. This particular LP side has lots of Beethoven massed strings ( 3rd and 4th movement of Symphony #4) which came out more naturally and true-to-life through the 881S. The 103R rendered them with an euphonious shining "hi-fi personality" which is not on the originals. More experiments need to be done. But I've got a hunch the 881S will not be de-throned in my mind.

Please let me know about the above questions,

THANKYOU,
bauzace50

@ Audio Soul,

cantilever replacements are always that way. I call them "pirate's wooden leg", if you've seen "pirates in the movies. I've had two "pirate's legs" on two of my cartridges, and had one on loan (done by Mr. van den Hul himself) which never satisfied me. And the three shortcomings were the same on the three cartridges: some degree of treble resonance added to the original. That's why I mistrust "pirates's legs", on the basis of three cartridges I played extensively in my own home.

b50,
Please don't sell your 103R short based on your experience with a Stanton 500. The Stanton is not similiar is any fashion to a DL-103R. I can't imagine why you would pay for a SS retip on any Stanton cartridge (well maybe one). I was never enamoured by any Stanton cartridge and their sound was never anything but forgettable.

Anyway...the Stanton retip was quite a bit of a different animal in that the length of the cantilever on the replacable Stanton stylus would have to be considerably shorter than the cantilever length on the DL-103R. This would probably give rise to HF resonance issues that would reveal some of the more disagreeable characters of the lowly Stanton.

The DL-103R has been retipped by many people using SS's TOTL Optimized LC stylus and ruby cantilever and the reported results have been glowing. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103 and DL-103R cartridges as part of his cartridge lineup if you want more of a recommendation. Peter also adds the option of adjusting the compliance of the DL-103/103R from the 5 x 10-6 cm/Dyne to a stated figure of 8 x 10-6 cm/Dyne (IIRC).

Its not much of a chance from a standpoint of resulting sound. The DL-103 and DL-103R has been retipped by SS enough times that its almost a standard of sorts. If I were you I would be considering whether you will be replacing the body.

Fortunately Peter also sells wooden bodies for DL-103/103Rs. Like I said its a cottage industry of sorts.

I intend to send off my backup DL-103R someday for a SS $350 retip. My DL-103D has that same retip and its been my favorite for a while now.

I would go ahead and do it. Many people have done so and loved the results. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103/103Rs as part of their cartridge lineup. Those cartridges can be bought with wooden bodies, nuded or with the stock plastic bodies. They can also all be bought with the compliance adjustment. Peter also sells a modified mono version of the DL-103 IIRC.

I know there is alwys something to worry about but having a SS retip done on a DL-103 or DL-103R is one of those no-brainer type of moves. From a sonic point of view there is nothing but gains to be had.

I'm not sure if I would bother owning a cartridge that's a lot more expensive if I struck the lottery or something like that. Yeah...maybe I would but it really is that good. Really.

Ed

[Ldg]

I know there is alwys something to worry about but having a SS retip done on a DL-103 or DL-103R is one of those no-brainer type of moves. From a sonic point of view there is nothing but gains to be had.

That is as may be. But then it ceases to be an original 103/103r, loses the pedigree and heritage, and becomes something else. To be evaluated and considered seperately against alternates that don't necessarily resemble the original either, but that one has surely already decided not to buy when choosing the 103r.

The original 103/103r tip and cantilever is quality. A substantial part of the reason for buying it, embracing original bona fide sonic character, of course. It's actually the good bit. Throw it away along with the body, and all you have left is a magnet and a short piece of bent wire !!!

The 103/103r has its own place, and stands well on its own merit in original form. It's bona fide !

[steve195527]

@ john guest,

thanks for the information. I am seriously considering the retip only (diamond tip only) because SoundSmith did the ruby cantilever and tip for my Stanton 500 EE Mk II a couple of years back. And this was only a partial success.

The part I did not like was a very slight extra treble personality on ALL the treble. Very nice silver lining, which sounds "hi-fi" but is not true to life.

SO, after many years of finding out for myself, without any persons' testimonials, I am tired of "doing it myself". My motto was to find out for myself. But no more. Now, I've got to watch all my expenses so that each one goes for a precisely defined barter. No more chances.

I don't want to pay for retipping the DL-103R, only to find out it will develop a treble resonance (however mild it may be). This time it has to be "fail safe". That's why I am requesting testimonials from those who have been there.

As of this moment, I did a comparison of one LP side on the DL-103R, and on the Stanton 881S. This particular LP side has lots of Beethoven massed strings ( 3rd and 4th movement of Symphony #4) which came out more naturally and true-to-life through the 881S. The 103R rendered them with an euphonious shining "hi-fi personality" which is not on the originals. More experiments need to be done. But I've got a hunch the 881S will not be de-throned in my mind.

Please let me know about the above questions,

THANKYOU,
bauzace50

@ Audio Soul,

cantilever replacements are always that way. I call them "pirate's wooden leg", if you've seen "pirates in the movies. I've had two "pirate's legs" on two of my cartridges, and had one on loan (done by Mr. van den Hul himself) which never satisfied me. And the three shortcomings were the same on the three cartridges: some degree of treble resonance added to the original. That's why I mistrust "pirates's legs", on the basis of three cartridges I played extensively in my own home.

b50,
Please don't sell your 103R short based on your experience with a Stanton 500. The Stanton is not similiar is any fashion to a DL-103R. I can't imagine why you would pay for a SS retip on any Stanton cartridge (well maybe one). I was never enamoured by any Stanton cartridge and their sound was never anything but forgettable.

Anyway...the Stanton retip was quite a bit of a different animal in that the length of the cantilever on the replacable Stanton stylus would have to be considerably shorter than the cantilever length on the DL-103R. This would probably give rise to HF resonance issues that would reveal some of the more disagreeable characters of the lowly Stanton.

The DL-103R has been retipped by many people using SS's TOTL Optimized LC stylus and ruby cantilever and the reported results have been glowing. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103 and DL-103R cartridges as part of his cartridge lineup if you want more of a recommendation. Peter also adds the option of adjusting the compliance of the DL-103/103R from the 5 x 10-6 cm/Dyne to a stated figure of 8 x 10-6 cm/Dyne (IIRC).

Its not much of a chance from a standpoint of resulting sound. The DL-103 and DL-103R has been retipped by SS enough times that its almost a standard of sorts. If I were you I would be considering whether you will be replacing the body.

Fortunately Peter also sells wooden bodies for DL-103/103Rs. Like I said its a cottage industry of sorts.

I intend to send off my backup DL-103R someday for a SS $350 retip. My DL-103D has that same retip and its been my favorite for a while now.

I would go ahead and do it. Many people have done so and loved the results. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103/103Rs as part of their cartridge lineup. Those cartridges can be bought with wooden bodies, nuded or with the stock plastic bodies. They can also all be bought with the compliance adjustment. Peter also sells a modified mono version of the DL-103 IIRC.

I know there is alwys something to worry about but having a SS retip done on a DL-103 or DL-103R is one of those no-brainer type of moves. From a sonic point of view there is nothing but gains to be had.

I'm not sure if I would bother owning a cartridge that's a lot more expensive if I struck the lottery or something like that. Yeah...maybe I would but it really is that good. Really.

Ed

I wonder when you criticise the stanton cartridges whether you have listened to either the 881 or the low output 980xlz,they were both very very good cartridges and hardly forgettable.I still have the pickering version of the 980 and that is a far better cartridge in my opinion than the 103r,I do own both

[EdAInWestOC]

@ john guest,

thanks for the information. I am seriously considering the retip only (diamond tip only) because SoundSmith did the ruby cantilever and tip for my Stanton 500 EE Mk II a couple of years back. And this was only a partial success.

The part I did not like was a very slight extra treble personality on ALL the treble. Very nice silver lining, which sounds "hi-fi" but is not true to life.

SO, after many years of finding out for myself, without any persons' testimonials, I am tired of "doing it myself". My motto was to find out for myself. But no more. Now, I've got to watch all my expenses so that each one goes for a precisely defined barter. No more chances.

I don't want to pay for retipping the DL-103R, only to find out it will develop a treble resonance (however mild it may be). This time it has to be "fail safe". That's why I am requesting testimonials from those who have been there.

As of this moment, I did a comparison of one LP side on the DL-103R, and on the Stanton 881S. This particular LP side has lots of Beethoven massed strings ( 3rd and 4th movement of Symphony #4) which came out more naturally and true-to-life through the 881S. The 103R rendered them with an euphonious shining "hi-fi personality" which is not on the originals. More experiments need to be done. But I've got a hunch the 881S will not be de-throned in my mind.

Please let me know about the above questions,

THANKYOU,
bauzace50

@ Audio Soul,

cantilever replacements are always that way. I call them "pirate's wooden leg", if you've seen "pirates in the movies. I've had two "pirate's legs" on two of my cartridges, and had one on loan (done by Mr. van den Hul himself) which never satisfied me. And the three shortcomings were the same on the three cartridges: some degree of treble resonance added to the original. That's why I mistrust "pirates's legs", on the basis of three cartridges I played extensively in my own home.

b50,
Please don't sell your 103R short based on your experience with a Stanton 500. The Stanton is not similiar is any fashion to a DL-103R. I can't imagine why you would pay for a SS retip on any Stanton cartridge (well maybe one). I was never enamoured by any Stanton cartridge and their sound was never anything but forgettable.

Anyway...the Stanton retip was quite a bit of a different animal in that the length of the cantilever on the replacable Stanton stylus would have to be considerably shorter than the cantilever length on the DL-103R. This would probably give rise to HF resonance issues that would reveal some of the more disagreeable characters of the lowly Stanton.

The DL-103R has been retipped by many people using SS's TOTL Optimized LC stylus and ruby cantilever and the reported results have been glowing. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103 and DL-103R cartridges as part of his cartridge lineup if you want more of a recommendation. Peter also adds the option of adjusting the compliance of the DL-103/103R from the 5 x 10-6 cm/Dyne to a stated figure of 8 x 10-6 cm/Dyne (IIRC).

Its not much of a chance from a standpoint of resulting sound. The DL-103 and DL-103R has been retipped by SS enough times that its almost a standard of sorts. If I were you I would be considering whether you will be replacing the body.

Fortunately Peter also sells wooden bodies for DL-103/103Rs. Like I said its a cottage industry of sorts.

I intend to send off my backup DL-103R someday for a SS $350 retip. My DL-103D has that same retip and its been my favorite for a while now.

I would go ahead and do it. Many people have done so and loved the results. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103/103Rs as part of their cartridge lineup. Those cartridges can be bought with wooden bodies, nuded or with the stock plastic bodies. They can also all be bought with the compliance adjustment. Peter also sells a modified mono version of the DL-103 IIRC.

I know there is alwys something to worry about but having a SS retip done on a DL-103 or DL-103R is one of those no-brainer type of moves. From a sonic point of view there is nothing but gains to be had.

I'm not sure if I would bother owning a cartridge that's a lot more expensive if I struck the lottery or something like that. Yeah...maybe I would but it really is that good. Really.

Ed

I wonder when you criticise the stanton cartridges whether you have listened to either the 881 or the low output 980xlz,they were both very very good cartridges and hardly forgettable.I still have the pickering version of the 980 and that is a far better cartridge in my opinion than the 103r,I do own both

I did specify that there were "almost" no Stantons that I would bother with. I owned an 881 many years ago and found it pretty good but lacking. The low output 980 (if thats the right model number) is the exception I referred to.

Ed

[steve195527]

[quote="bauzace50"]@ john guest,

thanks for the information. I am seriously considering the retip only (diamond tip only) because SoundSmith did the ruby cantilever and tip for my Stanton 500 EE Mk II a couple of years back. And this was only a partial success.

The part I did not like was a very slight extra treble personality on ALL the treble. Very nice silver lining, which sounds "hi-fi" but is not true to life.

SO, after many years of finding out for myself, without any persons' testimonials, I am tired of "doing it myself". My motto was to find out for myself. But no more. Now, I've got to watch all my expenses so that each one goes for a precisely defined barter. No more chances.

I don't want to pay for retipping the DL-103R, only to find out it will develop a treble resonance (however mild it may be). This time it has to be "fail safe". That's why I am requesting testimonials from those who have been there.

As of this moment, I did a comparison of one LP side on the DL-103R, and on the Stanton 881S. This particular LP side has lots of Beethoven massed strings ( 3rd and 4th movement of Symphony #4) which came out more naturally and true-to-life through the 881S. The 103R rendered them with an euphonious shining "hi-fi personality" which is not on the originals. More experiments need to be done. But I've got a hunch the 881S will not be de-throned in my mind.

Please let me know about the above questions,

THANKYOU,
bauzace50

@ Audio Soul,

cantilever replacements are always that way. I call them "pirate's wooden leg", if you've seen "pirates in the movies. I've had two "pirate's legs" on two of my cartridges, and had one on loan (done by Mr. van den Hul himself) which never satisfied me. And the three shortcomings were the same on the three cartridges: some degree of treble resonance added to the original. That's why I mistrust "pirates's legs", on the basis of three cartridges I played extensively in my own home.

b50,
Please don't sell your 103R short based on your experience with a Stanton 500. The Stanton is not similiar is any fashion to a DL-103R. I can't imagine why you would pay for a SS retip on any Stanton cartridge (well maybe one). I was never enamoured by any Stanton cartridge and their sound was never anything but forgettable.

Anyway...the Stanton retip was quite a bit of a different animal in that the length of the cantilever on the replacable Stanton stylus would have to be considerably shorter than the cantilever length on the DL-103R. This would probably give rise to HF resonance issues that would reveal some of the more disagreeable characters of the lowly Stanton.

The DL-103R has been retipped by many people using SS's TOTL Optimized LC stylus and ruby cantilever and the reported results have been glowing. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103 and DL-103R cartridges as part of his cartridge lineup if you want more of a recommendation. Peter also adds the option of adjusting the compliance of the DL-103/103R from the 5 x 10-6 cm/Dyne to a stated figure of 8 x 10-6 cm/Dyne (IIRC).

Its not much of a chance from a standpoint of resulting sound. The DL-103 and DL-103R has been retipped by SS enough times that its almost a standard of sorts. If I were you I would be considering whether you will be replacing the body.

Fortunately Peter also sells wooden bodies for DL-103/103Rs. Like I said its a cottage industry of sorts.

I intend to send off my backup DL-103R someday for a SS $350 retip. My DL-103D has that same retip and its been my favorite for a while now.

I would go ahead and do it. Many people have done so and loved the results. Peter Ledermann sells retipped DL-103/103Rs as part of their cartridge lineup. Those cartridges can be bought with wooden bodies, nuded or with the stock plastic bodies. They can also all be bought with the compliance adjustment. Peter also sells a modified mono version of the DL-103 IIRC.

I know there is alwys something to worry about but having a SS retip done on a DL-103 or DL-103R is one of those no-brainer type of moves. From a sonic point of view there is nothing but gains to be had.

I'm not sure if I would bother owning a cartridge that's a lot more expensive if I struck the lottery or something like that. Yeah...maybe I would but it really is that good. Really.

Ed

I wonder when you criticise the stanton cartridges whether you have listened to either the 881 or the low output 980xlz,they were both very very good cartridges and hardly forgettable.I still have the pickering version of the 980 and that is a far better cartridge in my opinion than the 103r,I do own both

I did specify that there were "almost" no Stantons that I would bother with. I owned an 881 many years ago and found it pretty good but lacking. The low output 980 (if thats the right model number) is the exception I referred to.

Ed[/quote]
Sorry but I thought that:-
"I was never enamoured by any Stanton cartridge and their sound was never anything but forgettable."
meant you didn't like any of them