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Grado Hum Database

the thin end of the wedge

Postby Ldg » 16 Feb 2011 20:21

Here's a stab at an outilne explanation for how a higher 'working' or effective cartridge inductance might arise in the case of Grado cartridges, as per observations. For review and discussion.

I tried to keep it non mathematical, but it's impossible really. But I'll try to summarise going along.

First step is to attempt a definition of 'effective cartridge inductance :

16516

In these terms, 'effective cartridge inductance' as seen by the generator is simply the rate of change of coil flux wrt cartridge output current. I acknowledge that's hard to grasp in non physics terms, but it helps enormously.

Next step is to describe the Grado cartridge. Most of the description for this is taken from the Grado patents that describe operation in some detail. Black is the current circuit, green is the magnetic circuit. Red is mutual inductance path between coils :

16517

Basically, a 'generator ring' steers flux into two coils depending on stylus position, where the sum of the flux in the two coils is constant. Sort of push-pull. Flux in one arm rises as the other falls. Flux direction is always anticlockwise in this diagram.

There are magnetic gaps at front and rear of the coils, and an overall mutual inductance exists between the coils in the magnetic circuit shown in red. This has an associated coupling constant k.

Here's a sketch that shows how externally measured self inductance might arise :

16518

Basically, the sense of the coils and mutual inductance combine to cancel in a ratio (1-k), and overall extrenal inductance in this scheme Lext =(L1+L2)(1-k). 0<k<1. For typical values of k, L is much smaller than (L1+L2).

Here's a sketch that shows how internally generated 'effective cartridge inductance' might arise :

16519

Flux changes in the two coils are always opposing. In combination with opposed winding sense, in this scheme, 'effective inductance' of each coil combines, and the total effective cartridge inductance is L1+L2.

In this way, the cartridge effective inductive is much larger than inductance as can be externally measured directly on the pins.

NB conventional MM/MI cartridges operate differently, and generally such an effect operates with different principle, and the effect appears to be generally reversed.

Obviously, this is just a theory, and is posted here for comment and review. It's also quite simplistic, and ignores all manner of real losses and effects. However, the principle at issue comes through, and since the difference between 'effective' and measured inductance is predicted to be so large, it seems a reasonable approach at this stage.

To hoik this post back to topic, the coil arrangement discussed here is not humbucking. Whereas conventional MM/MI cartridges can be arranged so, the Grado coil arrangement as mooted in this post can't be so. Hence the hum issue, perhaps. So i reckon.

Comments, questions.........?!
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measure coils seperatly

Postby audiopile » 16 Feb 2011 20:39

Lucky - this would seem like a argument for prying a Grado apart and separately measuring the coils ? If I understand this correctly ( and I probably don't) - the coils should be measured in situ with at least the stub of a stylus assembly in place? The results of L1 plus L2 would allow us to determine what R to insert into the version one capacifier ?
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Re: measure coils seperatly

Postby Ldg » 16 Feb 2011 22:41

audiopile wrote:Lucky - this would seem like a argument for prying a Grado apart and separately measuring the coils ? If I understand this correctly ( and I probably don't) - the coils should be measured in situ with at least the stub of a stylus assembly in place? The results of L1 plus L2 would allow us to determine what R to insert into the version one capacifier ?

Spot on, audiopile. I think it's a fine time to measure inductance of a single Grado coil in situ. Need a volunteer...........!

Just spotted a typo in my last post, BTW.
Externally measurable inductance, should be (L1+L2)(1-k)............not (L1+L2)(k-1).
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Postby Mark_s » 22 Mar 2011 04:43

I really wanted it to work.

After some years I blew off the dust from my Mitsubishi DP-EC7, not the best table around but still pretty decent, and spent some time replacing belts and the grain of wheat bulbs used to activate all the automatic stuff with LEDs.

But let me digress. Some couple years ago through my day job I ran into the former regional sales rep for Yamaha who knew very well the place I bought all my gear from then. When I expressed frustration over not being able to easily get a replacement stylus for my Andante-E he called the guy who had his old job ( he was retired) and had him send me a Grado Blue. Gave it to me,... How nice was that!

As I said I really wanted it to work; what with all the effort it took bringing this thing back to life why not give it a new cartridge.

But it didn't. There was a noticeable hum from the time I turned on the power until the time I turned it off. And it got worse as it reaches center (direct drive machine).

So I put the Andante back on a spare head and all the hum is all gone, not to mention it sounds better though not by much,...

This is not to slam all the people who are more assiduous with the technical interest but in this case all the circuits 101 stuff hits me like the guys giving testimony to the panel investigating the destruction of the Challenger shuttle: charts and all that rigmarole. And all it took was one physicist with a sample of the o-ring in a glass of ice water to show the obvious.

Obviously it it a shielding issue related to the table though I am not going to rip back into it to hack some shields for a cartridge that sounds not as good as what I have. It will end up being a spare while I wait for a new stylus when the current one wears down. I might even go as far as changing heads to see if that makes a difference.

Is the Grado a bad cartridge. Probably no. Personally, I like the design concept.

But don't fly it under certain conditions. And not on a Mitsubishi DP-EC7.
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Postby Ldg » 22 Mar 2011 18:41

Mark_s wrote:...... And all it took was one physicist with a sample of the o-ring in a glass of ice water to show the obvious.

Yes, I thought that was exactly what I'd done here ! So when devising TT workarounds, you might know what you're dealing with.
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Re: capacitance

Postby flavio81 » 22 Mar 2011 20:11

ld wrote:Here's a theoretical prediction for what the difference 'should' look like, if cartridge inductance were 300mH, and if 45mH :

You can see close resemblence between actual measured and the 300mH prediction. Spec is 45mH. It could be a happy coincidence, of course.


Genius stroke, ld. Clever test.

ld wrote:.......and less good news for the widely accepted belief that Grado cartridges are insensitive to capacitive loading ! An iconoclastic moment, perhaps !


It really is surprising. Even i thought Grados were inmune to loading, but...

audiopile wrote:I started to think about what got me interested in Grado's in the first place and finally remembered it was their ability to play RCA CD-4 encoded 4 channel records.(...) the Grado FTE+1 actually did a beautiful job of playing back CD-4 records - and retail/list price was I believe $18.95 .


For what is worth, Lou Dorren, inventor of the first (and only) CD4 demodulating IC, has invented a new CD4 demodulator recently. He is selling them with what he considers the best currently-in-production cartridge available for CD4 playback... A custom Grado Gold with a Shibata tip! Now, it's a "custom" job so maybe the coils are not standard. It would be good to ask him, he's on the quadraphonicquad.com forums.

audiopile wrote:Would literally breaking a Grado apart and measuring a individual coil tell us anything worthwhile ?


Well once i destroyed apart an old Grado cartridge, but i threw it into the garbage can. It was during the height of my "Grado hate" phase.
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Postby Mark_s » 23 Mar 2011 04:04

Ah, Yes! I see it now clearly. I understand it much better when you state it that way. Brilliant!
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