Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

[scho2684]

Sorry, forgotten to mention the brand, edited in the meantime, it is a Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II....

Marco

[dlaloum]

There is some suspicion that Jico may be making styli for AT...

I must post some of the pics of my SAS.... it really does look the same!

[dlaloum]

Here they are for comparison

This is a Jico SAS on a N97xE









Looks a lot like that AT stylus.... is it due to inherent similarity of the designs, or are AT Microline's in fact SAS styli? (or perhaps Jico manufactured variation thereof...)

[scho2684]

I see what you mean, but they are quiet different:

Look at the tip from the AT, its a Micro Line:


Number 1 on this picture:


Yours looks more in the direction of a Linear Contact?

Marco

[dlaloum]

Hi Marco,

I have a feeling that if I can get that stylus at the same angle as yours in that photo - they may look the same.... might give it a try at some point... (takes a long time getting the stylus positioned at 200x - without a mechanical stage!)

Here is a question (and a request) for the community at large...

Has anyone taken good microscope pics of a Grado "true elipsoid"?

And perhaps the older Grado high end styli:
8MZ
XTZ
MCZ
TLZ

We are starting to build up a pretty good idea of what most styli shapes are like and their pros/cons/properties.....

But there has been very little mention of Grado.

And Grado themselves seem to avoid discussing the styli - lots of talk about their cantilever technology - but very little about needle shape....

[Klaus R.]

Hi all,

a question that I asked myself more than once: with respect to the stylus-wall contact areas as provided by various sources, does anyone know at what tracking force these areas have been determined?

Klaus

[flavio81]

Hi all,

a question that I asked myself more than once: with respect to the stylus-wall contact areas as provided by various sources, does anyone know at what tracking force these areas have been determined?

Klaus

No, and this is the same question i've always make to myself.

[scho2684]

Guess what this is:



No, this is no p**n!

This is a Dynavector Karat 23rs, once fitted with a VdH retip...
Now a Dynerotical




A rather strange shape of one of the AT-ML150's:



Still seems to play well however....



Marco

[dlaloum]

Hi Folks,

We've seen pics of the OM30 fineline, and the identical looking Digitrac 300SE stylus...

I just ran up my Ortofon 320u under the microscope - it also claims a "Fine Line" stylus - but it could not appear more different...:






I am getting reflections from some facets, but if this has a line contact edge, it will be a relatively broad one...

I also came across this diagram in an 80's Ortofon catalogue (in the VE library)



The following text describes them as

A) Cutting sapphire footprint (the "ideal")
B) SCL (symmetrical contact line) Diamond (MC2000)
C) Fine Line Diamond
D) Typical Eliptical

The VMS30 is also described as a Fine Line diamond - but looks different again from the OM30





Looks much more Shibata-like.....

Any thoughts.... what exactly are these shapes?

bye for now

David

[flavio81]

David, thank you VERY much for the 320U shot. Since it's a bonded stylus, we cannot appreciate the shape easily.

AFAIK Ortofon never published a detailed diagram of the fine line stylus... so maybe anything can be called FL by them ...

[Ldg]

Here's a scale sketch mark up showing how a standard eliptical fits in the groove, and where contact locations are :


BTW, one can simply find contact locations for any stylus profile because it is always the points where stylus curvature has a tangent exactly 45 deg to the vertical/horizontal.

On these lines, here's a SEM photo of a similar stylus in a stereo groove that also illustrates how the fit works, and where contact locations are:

http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/215066/view

[flavio81]

--- Updated with more generations of the Shure V15 and the Nagaoka JT-555, and some Philips cartridges, including some ceramic ones for comparison. Also the first Stereo MM, from ELAC.

It shows how pickups have advanced a LONG way!!

Effective mass at the tip -- the smaller, the better.
NOTE that so far what i have learned is that the cantilever is the main responsible for the total moving mass, more than the tip itself.

6.000mg ELAC STS-200 (1958, first stereo MM pickup?? 4-6g VTF)
6.000mg GE VR-II (1955, mono, variable reluctance, 4-7g VTF)
4.500mg Sonotone 9T (1960, stereo, ceramic)
3.000mg Philips GP316 (1958, crystal, mono, 5-7g VTF)
1.400mg Philips GP380/GP390 (1968, high fidelity ceramic cartridge)
1.200mg Shure V15 first generation (MM)
1.000mg Ortofon SPU (all classic and 'mono' models)
0.970mg Shure "bi-radial" (0.4x0.7mil, MM)
0.800mg (less than) Philips GP400, 401 1st gen (MM)
0.750mg Ortofon X1-MCP (p-mount, high output MC)
0.600mg Nagaoka JT-555 (pseudo "carbon fiber" cantilever)
0.600mg (less than) Philips GP412 1st gen (MM)
0.500mg Ortofon OM10 stylus (bushed elliptical, MI)
0.500mg Philips GP922 (high end MC)
0.450mg Shure V15-II (MM)
0.400mg Ortofon OM20 stylus (nude elliptical, MI)
0.400mg Ortofon X5-MC (HOMC, nude FG)
0.370mg Shure Elliptical (0.2x0.7mil, MM)
0.330mg Shure bi-radial on V15-III (MM) (berillium control rod)
0.300mg Ortofon OM30 stylus (nude Fine Line), OM40 (nude FG), MI
0.290mg Technics EPC-P202C (p-mount, MM, boron cant)
0.290mg Shure HE on V15-IV (MM) ("telescopic shank")
0.270mg Denon DL-301 (MC)
0.250mg Denon DL-207 (MC)
0.240mg Van den Hul Colibri (MC)
0.230mg Technics EPC-P310MC (p-mount, MC, boron cant)
0.220mg Ortofon Jubilee (MC)
0.180mg Denon DL-303 (MC)
0.170mg Shure Micro-Ridge (0.15x3.00mil, MM, beryllium cant)
0.168mg Denon DL-305
0.109mg Technics EPC-P205CMK4 (p-mount, 0.2x0.7mil, MM, boron cant.)
0.098mg Technics EPC-100CMK3 (MM, boron cant.)
0.077mg Denon DL1000 (MC, boron cant.)
0.055mg Technics EPC-P100CMK4 (p-mount, MM, boron cant.)

Technics specs from Technics.
Shure specs from http://www.audioselectief.nl/vraaghethe ... dvorm.html.
Shure V15-IV specs from a shure paper
Ortofon specs from Ortofon website
Ortofon Jubilee, VDH's Colibri, and Denon DL1000's specs come from forum member Klaus R.
Other Denon specs from the Denon MC cartridge brochure
Shure V15-I, II, and III from July '73 issue on gramophone.net
Nagaoka JT-555 spec from turntableneedles
Philips GP400 specs from their own brochures
Other Specs (Philips, Sonotone, GE, Shure, ELAC) from http://hupse.eu

[empirelvr]

Here's a little curve ball for everyone.

This is from the January 1960 issue of High Fidelity. The implications here are tantalizing. Strangely enough I can't find *ANY* other information about this other than a blurb about Fidelitone introducing this stylus in a 1960 issue of Billboard (via Google Books)

And yes, you read that correctly. *1960*!!!

Any clue if this is one of the first ellipticals or an early attempt at a Shibata-like line contact design?

[Doug G.]

Actually, 1960 was not that early in terms of stylus development and after the introduction of stereo LPs,the experimentation really took off.

The tracing of stereo grooves is quite a bit more complex than mono grooves which just move side-to-side.

Still, a very interesting advertisement.

It does kind of look like a Shibata except a Shibata has no facets on the front and the shaping at the rear is slightly rounded.

Doug