Wet playing revisited

[Twinhit]

5 to 1 Distilled Water to Isopropyl Alcohol formula is what a friend of mine and I use.

As for mud-crud in the grooves, sure, it's possible but I think by running wet would soften the mud again, then if you wiped the just played track, you might could clean out the cruddy muddy grooves in the record, wipe dry, run wet, wipe dry run wet again and again until that vinyl is clean, clean.

IMHO the 200+ deg heat thing is a bit rich.
sniff sniff.... a rat??? I kinda think someone wants to sell record brushes, and cleaners and cartridges.
what say you?

[kelvinMunson]

I say, I would rather use a brush to clean my records than an expensive stylus.

[Twinhit]

On the thought of electrostatic electricity and vinyl/stylus.

Maybe I am wrong but thought I'd throw this out there.


http://www.school-for-champions.com/sci ... causes.htm

[Twinhit]

I say, I would rather use a brush to clean my records than an expensive stylus.

How about a toothpick?


A point I ought to make is that you cannot follow a groove as effectively, with a brush, like you can a stylus that actually fits in the groove.

Whether you use a cheap or expensive stylus is up to you.
I would think an elliptical stylus would go a bit deeper than other designs.

[kelvinMunson]

What about a toothpick, is that what you use?

Must be very time consuming ?

Suggest you get yourself a decent RCM.

[Twinhit]

What about a toothpick, is that what you use?

Must be very time consuming ?

Suggest you get yourself a decent RCM.

Sir, I am afraid you missed my modified reply.
IF I may, it is often proven that high quality work
is often done by over long periods of time.
Patience is the virtue of such an artisan.
Sadly, around the world, man has given up the
time honored traditions of working with their hands
and have wholly embraced the technology of machines to do
his bidding.

No sir, I simply run wet and don't mind if you do either.
As for the toothpick: If it is safe for me to clean my teeth with,
then I am sure it won't do my vinyls any harm.

[kelvinMunson]

I'll stick with my Okki Nokki, thanks

[Twinhit]

I'll stick with my Okki Nokki, thanks

Okie Dokey.

[Twinhit]

Sound advice for the Hyperaudiophiliac:
If tooth picks can pick the crud off your teeth, they can pick the crud off
your records.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." attributed to Arthur Schopenhauer

[Ldg]

I made careful measurements of low frequency spectra for wet play versus dry play. Using a test disc with pink noise to 30Hz. Measured 3 samples for each of dry and wet play, with the test disc clamped in place for all measurements. Ortofon 2M Red in Pro-ject 8.6C arm.

From which it seems reasonable to conclude there is a tangible lf effect from playing wet.

Now it needs explaining !

Peak f of the lf response perhaps has shifted down a bit. Q has increased (?). Does wet play effectively provide damping (excuse the pun), fluid drag proportional to velocity ? Can't get my head around it yet, but the reaction force to any drag force would be effected through the cantilever.

How interesting !

Thread link is here : viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22360&start=235

The above post has remained an enigma as to how/why playing wet would significantly improve lf stability. But I think the answer may be as follows :

Normal stylus-groove friction seems to follow a flicker law, as set out in this thread here :
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=41978&start=66
In the follow up discussion, it's suggested that friction has a steady state part and a random element which follows a 1/f flicker noise law, being based on stick-slip friction.

Consider a silent groove. Tonearm drag from friction would then have a random element, potentially with a strong low frequency element - as flicker law noise characteristically has. Then skate force would have a random noise element due to friction, with a strong LF spectrum. This would then be a stimulus, and would show up in the cart/arm frequency response plots, modified by the response of that system.

Wet playback significantly reduces measured stylus-groove friction, as demonstrated on this thread. If it significantly reduces the random element, eg by eliminating stick-slip, then LF noise stimulus from skate force might be significantly reduced too. This would explain the significant improvement in LF spectrum, and apparent stability, observed in wet playback.

Then, wet playback might well reduce/eliminate a significant instability stimulus. And there's no need to try to explain any changes to the spring-mass-damper system of the cart/arm, the phenomenum can be explained without that. Just by changes to groove-stylus friction.

But the stability gain from wet playback is significant here. A corollary is that high friction records can stimulate instability. Interesting ?

[chalmh]

I would put that in simple words like:

Dry playing - The stylus tip is coliding with the vinyl mulecule clusters as they have impact with them. Same as a car wheel passes on small raod bumps and dents (asphalt surfase). You can hear the tyre noise.

Wet playing - The stylus tip is gliding/sliding over the avrage vinyl molecules clusters height because it may take some time to evacuate the liquid from the custer gaps, beside the lubrication effect of the liquid. Same as a car wheel slides on a wet road and the tyre noise is less audible.

[Ldg]

Yes, I find it a suprising corollary that the headshell becomes more stable, wobbling about far less at low frequencies. Beyond the audible noise improvement, it improves LF stability significantly !
Chalmh, you previously posted some time domain plots on this thread which seem to suggest this here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=22360&start=209
What I offer now is an explanation for what seems quite a surprising, and welcome outcome.

[Trackside]

wet vs dry.jpg (75.02 KiB) Viewed 603 times

Same track played dry then wet - red wet blue dry. Sl-1200 MK2 / DL-103. Subsonic energy lower in dry playing but likley insignificant and no reduction in the 7hz (cart resonance with lots of mass loading and KAB damper) peak. Tiny bit of variance past 5k with slightly more energy in the dry take so maybe some damping going on here which to be honest is where I'd expect it to happen. If wet playing alters friction it may well influence the sound by affecting the speed stability of a belt drive both in static and dynamic drag situations so subsonic measurements may vary on this kind of TT?

[Trackside]

wet vs dry HF.jpg (78.85 KiB) Viewed 595 times

Colour reversed to show slight variances in this (linear) frequency response plot.
BTW - Phono stage was V-LPS (no LF filter) recorded in Adobe Audition CS5 through an EMU 0404usb ADC.