conical versus ellipticals

[rayr0683]

Using cactus thorns to somehow make stylii or cantilevers that you said were somehow incredible, and an improvement over some manufacturers. I asked you about how you did it. And probably some other things, regarding Shure V15VMR, that I dont thik you answered, or answered properly, since I knew a bit about the Beryllium from Les Watts, a Shure Cartridge Designer.....Beryllium is really very good, not used to hide deficiencies. Ray

Which experiment?

[1200y3]

If they did not come close to my VN4, or VN5 (which is history) I would not bother. I still had state of the art cartridge. I think the 4 sounded more natural than the 5.

I was stating that a broken stylus that is still holding on by a sliver will have less mass on its tip than a Shure Microwall. I also found that if I had a broken one and repaired it with a cactus thorn it sounds close to the beryllium. This decouples the stylus tip preventing resonance transfers. A crack could be cut about 1/16 of an inch from the stylus tip, with a razor blade, and that releases alot of cantilever mass from the tip. The cantilever is like a bell handle, and if it is too large, the tip is restrained. If there is less cantilever mass on the tip, you will get the open-space and near three dimensionality, more than the VN5 had. It won't have the super fine detail the MR will acheive, but it can extend the rough response of a cheap generic from 12 K, smoothing it to the limit. (I have not measured it.)

I am not joking, I spent lots on high end styli, I know what I am hearing. The V15 I own is archaic, but strong, and a cartridge designer's delight. I keep it going forever.

BTW, I am talking about generics with huge cantilevers. Not easy (or may be not worth it) on a fine tiny cantilever.

I know beryllium is incredible, strong like a stainless steel sewing pin, and Shure's was possibly the best.

I don't have a Microwall anymore to compare. Obviously they had problems with cantilevers, because the original IV was a telescoped two pieced cantilever with a two piece bearing, not simple. (It is in the VE library, V15 IV). It makes sense.
*
So my belief is that the Beryllium Microwall Shure used was to avoid the large job of assembling the orignal design. It was a two-piece teleccopic cantilever with a two piece compliance. Very difficult stylus to build.
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I WANT THE BERILLIUM TRANSPARENCY. And I can get close.

I did repair an AKG with a whole thorn cantilever and it sounds great, but I think it dried up and I have to try another thorn. I have not used it enough to know. It won't be a problem with the AKG.

[1200y3]

BTW I will say berillium is bad and we won't see much of it anymore. Why? Because I want to be liked by cartridge manufacturers!

Thorns are not practicable for marketing, but it is a way to get some of that type of sound you are dreaming of, in your own yard. I think they have to be fresh.

[Thomas_A]

Any measurements of the cactus thorns?

[Ldg]

Any measurements of the cactus thorns?

This is a true story.

Just last week I was in a cinema bar in Oxford. DJs had two decks, both vintage 78rpm horn gramophones. They were playing period swing 78rpm from 20's and 30's, no amplification. Brilliant act. It was surprisingly loud, and somebody actually asked them to turn it down !!! So they switched to 'quiet stylii', which they said were cactus thorns, and on inspection, they really were. Really, it's true !

Forgot to ask if needles were conical or eliptical l

[1200y3]

Only with my ears.

In the future I may do measurements, but I am happy with my working styli. I don't have space in my equipment rack for equipment and it is cumbersome. There are about 8 mods/repairs I want to check though. When I think my GE RPX is ready then I will pull out the test equipment.

I can run sine wave sweeps on a disc and scope, but I don't have distorortion differentiation anyway.

[flavio81]

Stylus heat is a big factor in tracking problems.

No, it is not. It has been demostrated before, with physics calculation, that the energy that is produced at the tip is minimal and in practice it does NOT heat the vinyl more than 1º or 2ºC. Which is nothing.

[flavio81]

L The stylus never actually fits into the groove perfectly unless it has about 3 grams vertical force.

Wrong, many cartridges give incredibly low distortion figures and excellent frequency response at 1 gram. Facts contradict you.

The groove modulations were always designed to be played back with a standard afffordable stylus.

This is only partly true for pop records, not for classical music records.

The LP is not recorded with antyhing lower than 50Hz and anyhthing above 15kHz. If it was then master tape noises will enter the disc...

1. Frequencies of up to 122KHz (yes, ONE HUNDRED TWENTY TWO KILOHERTZ) have been recorded on vinyl experimentally.

2. On the 70s all CD-4 quadraphonic records had frequencies of 50KHz on the record.

3. Technics had a cartridge with frequency response up to 100 (ONE HUNDRED) Kilohertz.

4. Tape bias is at the very least 60KHz; much higher on a professional machine.

Mechanical playback is what makes vinyl so intriguing, but it is not understod by many.

It has been researched in depth. Maybe you can start reading the results of those researches too.

[1200y3]

Then you must be agreeing with me, because if the only required bandwidth is 20Hz to 20kHz or more realistically 40Hz TO 17Hz possibly a better sounding stylus could be created if they focus on the proper range and that being with great distortion figures.

I hope what you say about stylus heat is true, but there has to be some factors.

Did you actually see the stylus in the groove with a 500X microscope? The stylus doesn't have to be perfectly in the groove to pickup with low distortion.

And they don't have CD4s and what ever happened to them. So today's digital music requires wider bandwidth on vinyl to be enjoyed? The new vinyl discs are not even close to the original chemical compositions and are likely on the inferior side.

What do you mean "researched in depth". Don't you listen to vinyl because you enjoy it more than CD?

Your stylus may be able to track 60kHz, but how about 3 tones simultaneously, say 200hz, 2100hz, and 17khz. Or how about music? The problem in any component arises from haveing to pick up alot of signals at the same time.

[pivot]

Any measurements of the cactus thorns?

This is a true story.

Just last week I was in a cinema bar in Oxford. DJs had two decks, both vintage 78rpm horn gramophones. They were playing period swing 78rpm from 20's and 30's, no amplification. Brilliant act. It was surprisingly loud, and somebody actually asked them to turn it down !!! So they switched to 'quiet stylii', which they said were cactus thorns, and on inspection, they really were. Really, it's true !

Forgot to ask if needles were conical or eliptical l

Yup, catus thorns were the stylus/needle. No diamond at all. Quieter cause they are are more flexible, i.e. "lossy", then the hard steel. Different "tone" too. Bamboo and thorns from other plants were used too in acoustical reproduction days.

However the application of lossy material to modern cantilever seems counter to the accepted wisdom that a cantilever be as rigid and light as possible. I do recall somebody did have a cartridge with a carbon fiber cantilever. Can't recall who.

[Alec124c41]

And what are the bass frequencies of that organ note opening Also Spracht Zarathustra, or in the last movement of Saint-Saens 3rd Organ Symphony? And how lo is the bass on Sara K's Water Falls?
There is a lot of recorded music that goes below 50 Hz.

Cheers,
Alec

[1200y3]

So I guess it is safe to walk through a cactus field with bare feet. They aren't that stiff, strong, and rigid?

I usually either connect the stylus tip to the cantilever with a piece of cactus thorn, or right now I am listening to an AKG I had to toss if I could not fix it. The whole cantilever is a thorn with a tip glued to it with nail polish. There is less bass, but I just use the bass control and that bass is transparent. It can be and has been proven. It works.

Lossy cantilever? The cantilever is supposed to be neutral.

The extremely low frequency area with all the bass is better.

About my measurements, I use the null feature on my NAD 1300 on a mono record. It is not a totally accurate way, but it proves the experiments. It is a form of differential nulling, but it compares two different signals as opposed to one signal and a standard reference. BUT IT IS EFFECTIVE ENOUGH ON VINYL! After pushing the null button and re-checking the balance for a null, the noise leftover is tracking noise, usually already scribed onto the record from previous styli. And it is displaying real life vinyl damage and stylus mistracking. (As well as crosstalk) I built arms that I can adjust every thing from VTF, VTA, azimuth, tangent, tone arm wiring, etc. while in operation. Headshell leads?, I don't even go there, but Oyaide is building a headshell with silk covered leads, and that will make a huge difference. I used knotted silk thread to damp a VR armature too. Knotted silk is something else. Someday I'll try it as a cantilever.

If I could make a stylus tip with a thorn I would be happier! I thought of one of thse hairy cacti.

It is A/T that uses carbon on their cheap styli. It cannot be used on finer styli due to the bonding system required. It sounds sweet, but A/Ts vector magnet has a "massy" treble range athough very solid. It has the Decca like "blackness", just not the crystal high frequencies. Not smeared though. A/T deserves a pat on the back for building killer carts at affordable prices, and still creating flagship designs.

Hard diamonds are used for long life.
I think I will stop typing now, bandwidth aint getting cheaper!

[Ldg]

FWIW, speed of sound in both Berylium and Boron is unusually fast for metals, a side effect of high specific rigidity? Almost twice as fast as Aluminium (12km/s - v- 6km/s). Don't know if this is a factor......? It's not so well specified for cactus needles

[1200y3]

Thanks, I wondered what the difference is between beryllium and boron, when boron was accepted to be the best.

What would the characteristics of gold cantilever be?