conical versus ellipticals

[desktop]

I do not recall any posts I made that were against line contact styli because somehow the line contact styli caused more wear. I believe that all my posts advocate the use of the best line contact styli (VdH1, Gyger 1, MicroTracer, MicroRidge, Replicant etc.) will cause the lowest vinyl wear (or at least it will be wear that is more evenly distributed over the entire groove wall surface). Since the development of the Shibata and the MMC styli of B&O like the Pamanik, line contact styli were shown to cause less vinyl wear/damage than conical or elliptical styli.

The CBS tests of vinyl, so that CBS could produce better quality vinyl for records, both in terms of sound quality and disc life were done in the 50s. I know it is tedious (even for me) to go through all my posts to pull up the 3 or 4 that have links to the disc wear photos, but I did put these links into posts here at VinylForum, just so they could remain archived. I'll search myself, but harvest time is here and I'm very busy.

I think the question about bushings made from non-precious gem materials was discussed earlier as well. With metal bushings (even titanium), the tip mass is so much higher that the tracking is worse than with nude diamonds or even diamonds mounted on sapphire bushing. As well the glue bond area on any type of bushing flexes. Since diamond conducts heat exceedingly well, there is a tendency for the glue bond on a bushing to soften slightly, and then the image gets less clear/distinct.

[rayr0683]

Hello,
I have never seen the Grado stylus under microscope. Does anyone know what kind of Stylus type Grado used in the Grado Signature Series....such as the TLZ, MCZ...etc... I think they were called elipsoids, I dont quite understand what that type is. Does, or did Joe Grado use good quality stylus on his best cartridges??? I dont even mean the Wood Bodies, but they could be included as well. Thank, I appreciate it. Ray

I do not recall any posts I made that were against line contact styli because somehow the line contact styli caused more wear. I believe that all my posts advocate the use of the best line contact styli (VdH1, Gyger 1, MicroTracer, MicroRidge, Replicant etc.) will cause the lowest vinyl wear (or at least it will be wear that is more evenly distributed over the entire groove wall surface). Since the development of the Shibata and the MMC styli of B&O like the Pamanik, line contact styli were shown to cause less vinyl wear/damage than conical or elliptical styli.

The CBS tests of vinyl, so that CBS could produce better quality vinyl for records, both in terms of sound quality and disc life were done in the 50s. I know it is tedious (even for me) to go through all my posts to pull up the 3 or 4 that have links to the disc wear photos, but I did put these links into posts here at VinylForum, just so they could remain archived. I'll search myself, but harvest time is here and I'm very busy.

I think the question about bushings made from non-precious gem materials was discussed earlier as well. With metal bushings (even titanium), the tip mass is so much higher that the tracking is worse than with nude diamonds or even diamonds mounted on sapphire bushing. As well the glue bond area on any type of bushing flexes. Since diamond conducts heat exceedingly well, there is a tendency for the glue bond on a bushing to soften slightly, and then the image gets less clear/distinct.

[desktop]

I need to correct myself about not making a case against line contact styli. I presented some ideas about how these styli can pick up substantially more crud off of dics, more bits of melted vinyl chips and so on thus carrying much more tip mass than they should (a vinyl damage factor). I also speculated about how poor quality diamonds if used for high end stylus shapes can turn into chisels in the groove if a black spot on the diamond or a cleavage fracture forms on the stylus tip. I also mentioned how bushings can transmit heat well if they are metal, and on discs with high surface noise (which like sandpaper, will heat a stylus tip much more than smooth, well-lubricated vinyl). These specific little caveat worried me because of the deterioration I watched on a weekly basis on my AT OC9 ML cartridge with a higher level stylus design.

But when you compare styli to styli you have to assume that every stylus makers' diamonds are equal. Given that, the line contact styli with the longest linear contact lengths starting at the top of one side of the grove and ending up at the top of the other side of the groove, should have the lowest wear on vinyl, because the tracking force is distributed over this long length. I didn't say surface area because the vinyl is moving and so is the stylus (theoretically it goes up and down, side to side in an "X" pattern).

I guess that this is why Generally, I recommend shibata stylus designs or higher level stylus designs because of their fidelity, and also because they may have problems that COULD cause vinyl wear (so we'll just have to inspect those pesky styli each and every side of an album we play, as well as constantly cleaning styli), line contact styli still would cause less vinyl groove damage than elliptical or conical styli.

It says I have made 277 posts, yet I was only able to pull up 119, by using the author search function. Not sure why. I know I made posts with links to multiple web pages that had photos showing groove damage on vinyl. But I could only find this one so far. I'll keep looking.

This one is interesting, there are 5 pages and make sure your "Blink" function works

http://www.micrographia.com/projec/proj ... ny0000.htm

These micrographs are interesting too

http://pwatlas.mt.umist.ac.uk/internetm ... yl_z4.html

To think this makes sound

http://www.edwardsamuels.com/ILLUSTRATE ... groove.jpg

a few more nice images
http://www.audiography.com.au/images/Re ... -Inner.jpg

More
http://www.mnmicroscopy.org/ProjectMicr ... Groove.JPG

But I don't know what happened to all the other links I posted. Let me know if you find them. Thanks

[1200y3]

I found the Grado somewhat sensitive to inner groove distortion, but if that distortion is on the record it should be known anyhow, not that you are not allowed to use a microline or wahatever. True elipsoid was their only choice and I guess it is special, not much publicity on it, BUT think back to math class and ellipses always have the same locus, something to do with two focal points with the same constants. Proabably a good reason to take the ellipse seriously (even if I don't know if that is the dominating factor.) The diamond's vertical pressure will always be uniform with an ellipse.

The ELLIPSOID is a three dimensional ellipse. Possibly a cross between a conical and ellipse.

Now I know why the Grado has the most colored-free sound.

There are companies that put fine lines on Grados. And grado make conical.

[JaS]

It says I have made 277 posts, yet I was only able to pull up 119, by using the author search function. Not sure why.

Hi,
You need to tick 'posts' instead of 'threads' at the bottom of the search page to bring up individual posts.

BTW interesting thread

Regards,
JaS (a happy Gyger S tip user)

[desktop]

Yes I did mention the problem with badly made or badly polished ultra-line-contact styli. I think it behooves people to have at least a few weeks when a cartridge is installed to see if the stylus tip is a good diamond and well polished. Then you can relax in the knowledge you should be getting a long life from the stylus and your records too by simply cleaning the stylus tip often. Of course badly polished diamonds or just plain bad diamonds made into conical or elliptical styli can turn into brutal chisels too. So be watchful, and if you play any one record side often (once a week or so is often), then try to micro photograph the grooves once in a while or at least look at them under a microscope.

[pivot]

I think it behooves people to have at least a few weeks when a cartridge is installed to see if the stylus tip is a good diamond and well polished. Then you can relax in the knowledge you should be getting a long life from the stylus and your records too by simply cleaning the stylus tip often..

I believe I am using a cartridge, AT 440MLa, that you(or someone) suggested may have a less then perfect diamond.

Any pointers to those of us who do not posess a high grade microscope?

The stylus looks fine under a 20 power loupe/"microscope" but that is a rather limited device.

Is it just a matter of "if it sounds good it is good"? I do have circa 400 hours on it and it sounds just fine.

[Ldg]

Perhaps it goes with the territory, but I wondered how many here own or have access to a microscope for inspection of stylus ?

[Thomas_A]

Perhaps it goes with the territory, but I wondered how many here own or have access to a microscope for inspection of stylus ?

I have a handheld one for quick inspection. Sometimes I use some of the microscopes at work to look in detail.

[rayr0683]

Hello All,

I enjoy looking at pictures posted here, of different stylii, taken with microscopes. I tried a cheap one called an Eyeclopse, from Walmart, which went up to 400 or 600x magnification, but was only useable through your television, via the RCA Cables. I saw a USB type microscope in a thrift store, but it was missing parts, by IBM. This is supposed to be a great way to go, as you can save the images to your computer. Right now I have a Radio Shack handheld, that is 30-100x magnification, but very hard to keep steady.
Anyone have any affordable suggestions?? Is the USB Microscopes the way to go? Thanks, Ray

Perhaps it goes with the territory, but I wondered how many here own or have access to a microscope for inspection of stylus ?

[flavio81]

Right now I have a Radio Shack handheld, that is 30-100x magnification

I use one too, it's great. But for correctly assessing stylus wear you need a higher power microscope since wear is at the very tip of the stylus.

[Ldg]

I have a very basic x300 optical. I find this mag about minimum for looking at contact surfaces. Would go USB but think x200 is the limit, though if anybody has tried these, is the resolution is OK? Perhaps can zoom in on captured image ? One advantage is easy archive, which can't do right now, but as said, haven't actually tried one ?

[flavio81]

Back to the topic...

This link is HIGHLY recommended. There are WAV files of many MM, MI and MC cartridges, and some of them are sampled with different (elliptical vs other) styluses.

cartridges/mm-cartridges/

As far as i'm hearing, the sonic advantages of better-than-elliptical stylii (line-contact/HE and micro-ridge) are clear as water.

[Ldg]

Back to the topic...

This link is HIGHLY recommended. There are WAV files of many MM, MI and MC cartridges, and some of them are sampled with different (elliptical vs other) styluses.

cartridges/mm-cartridges/

As far as i'm hearing, the sonic advantages of better-than-elliptical stylii (line-contact/HE and micro-ridge) are clear as water.

Thanks flavio81. Great resource.