Grado Ph1 With Grado low output cart..

[Paul Murro]

Hi All,
Hope some of you may Be able to help. I bought a grado PH-1 Phono
preamp to use with my new mmf5.1se with a goldring 2400. I use this through a Jolida JD302BRC int. amp ,Totem mite speakers & totem Dream Catcher Sub. All was Well till, I in my infinite wisdom ,decided to go whole HOG and Buy a Grado Master statement low output cart ( .5mv )
I got everything all nice and set through the little switch which switches gain from 40db-56db turned up my amp ,and up ,and up,Well You get the picture almost 75% ot the way to get what I use to get at 33%???
I called Grado and was told this was normal?? I went back to my TEC Phono Preamp hooked it to the MC in and the gain returned to normal but without the fine sound I had even though it was low level on the grado pre.
I've since connected the PH-1 through a Presonus BlueTube Mic/Ins Tube
Pre then to my system and returned the lil' switch on the PH-1 to 40db to give me some head room.
It now sounds great but I am courious if any one else has had the same problem. I'm going to start to look for a Tube headphone amp that passes the signal thru the tube circuit when not connect to headphones to
use as an extra gain stage. The BlueTube is ok (I use it as a mic pre when I record , Guitars & Vocals ) But would like something made more for high end audio. I can't belive I have to spend more money

[bastlnut]

hallo,

spending money is the other name of this hobby!
it is usual to have to turn the volume way up when you use a special low output cartridge.
happens all the time.
if there is not considerably more noise than there used to be, then all is ok.
the fine detail and silky presentation is the benefit!
enjoy it.
though i wouldn't use an additional gain stage if i were you.
adds too much noise.
return the PH-1 to the high gain position and loose the additional gain stage.
you could look at your preamp and see what you can do there.
may be that a higher gain preamp may be in order now.

as the Grado cartirdge runs in, you will also notice a small increase in output.
persevere.

regards,
bastlnut

[Werner]

The Goldring is an indecently loud MM cartridge with 6.5mV, while the Grado is a normal low output cartridge with its 0.5mV. In fact the Goldring is 22dB louder than the Grado, while the gain switch of the PH1 only brings an additional 16dB. So net it is as if you lose 22-16 = 6dB.

As B'nut said, tweak the volume control. That's what it is for.

[Paul Murro]

Hi All,
I want to thank every one for thier wisdom and replys.
This is the latest things I've done to solve the problem
1, I droped the Blue tube as a gain stage it was a bit noiseie
2,I forgot in my haste that in the same system I have a NAD 754 Sourround sound Reciver I use for Movies,TV, etc.. I also use the tuner stage for FM thru the Zone2 out to the Jolida Intergrated amp. This allows me to use the pre in the NAD with out putting on the whole reciver
on it evens has a remote control for this feature. I put the grado ph-1 into an open rca pair ( vcr in ) This let me use the Jolida 302 about 35% of the way up and use Z2 volume to drive it like a power amp MUCH LESS noise and Got The Gain I needed. I think this will do 4 now.
I also Talked to Todd the V.J. ( who was VEERRY Nice since I did not purchase this Grado stuff from Him .THANKS TODD ) He did how ever write a 3 part article about the PH-1 and this series of Grado carts..I based My purchesses on these articles. He was also a bit Perplexed about the problem and did suggest I contact Grado to see if I can Make a stright up trade for the hi output verison of the Cart.. As of this writing I've got a call into John and am waiting to see if this is a possiability.
Although I would understand if this did not fly because this was MY choice and even with my research I F@%$ed UP!
Bastlenut,As much as I would like to run the rig W/O any added gain stages I have to put The jolida 75-80% up and tube noise still creeps in.
Werner . this is more of what I was after but I think You mean this translates to a -6 db drop in output which would explane the 25% out instead of the 100% I had .This means I need a 300wpc Tube amp instead of the 50wpc I'm useing( Power is The only answer !! ).
Anyway I do realy thank you all 4 your time and help.
I would still like to hear from any one that ,
A, has the same equipment in part or whole
B. owners of the Grado PH-1 or low output carts.
C, any Ideas that might add to Solving this .
Thanks Again ,Much welcomed.
Paul

[bastlnut]

hallo,

ok, lets try this.
i am very well aquainted with low output cartirdges and tube equipment.
even the Jolida 302B.
the 502B would have been the better choice for you, though you didn't know you would opt for a low output cartirdge.
the Jolida has a lower gain in the preamp than most other SS integrateds do.
the larger output tubes of the 502B amp would bring down the noise level that is being created by the preamp side of the lower watt output 302B.
have more power, don't need to turn the volume knob up so high.
a CD player, with its high output, is usually happy with 10-15% volume.....
showing that your 302B is undersized for your speakers.

other than that, you are still using an additional gain stage in the form of the NAD, instead of the Blue Tube.
the low output Grado gives a fuller and more mature rendition than the high output does.
you do know that Vinyl is not plug and play like a CD is.
the Jolida is a line only integrated.
it is not made for the rigors of Vinyl, only the high output of a CD player.
dug your own hole i guess.
very sorry to say.

regards,
bastlnut

[Paul Murro]

HI ,once more;
Bastlnut ,I'm well aware about vinyl at 55yrs and a retired electronics tech,with time as a broadcast engineer ( 1st phone and all Till they dereged in 84. ) I've been around vinyl for some time .the thing I was not aware of is that the new tube amps were built with just digital in mind. I do agree that I would have liked the 502 better but what we like and can afford is at best a jump ball. I'm retired because of illness to long to go into. Which leads me to a limited budget and haveing to live with what I Can.
When I bought the 302 I told the sales man at USA TUBE ADDIO that I was going back to vinyl and was told the 302 would be fine for low to mod. levels. As far as my Totem Mites and dream catcher sub I love them and in the small listening area 12'x9'x10'They do me proud.
Last but not least I still do welcome your input . One thing about this thing called sound is that it is always changeing and no matter how long you're at it there is something to learn. Just like my guitar playing,preforming and just breathing In & out.
Thanks for your input and you never know , I was lookin to buy a seprate Preamp in the $1500.00 range to use with my crown xl602s
now all I need is..... .

[Alec124c41]

The low output Grado can be treated like a low output moving coil cartridge. A preamp with MM/MC inputs should do the trick.
Phonopreamps.com TC-760LC is much better than the price might suggest. You can go as far up from there as you care to.

Alec

[Werner]

This means I need a 300wpc Tube amp instead of the 50wpc I'm useing( Power is The only answer !! ).

Your problem has nothing to do with power per se, only with total
available voltage gain and relative differences in cartridge output level.

If you can't live with turning up the volume control, and since you were a tech I suggest you modify the PH1 for more gain:



Reducing R6 from 53 Ohms to 33 Ohms will bring the gain up to 60dB. (Of course you'll need to do this in both channels).



You don't even have to remove R6, simply soldering a 100 Ohms resistor on top of it will do the trick as well.

[edit]

I'm not sure the component numbering of the diagram above matches that of Grado's board. You may have to trace the circuit and verify the actual position of those 53Rs.

[Werner]

[Paul Murro]

Hi once more;
Werner, Now this is more like it . I to had looked at that schematic & wondered if I could do just as you suggested. I just did not know how accurate this posting was because Grado has made so many things a big deep dark secret like output impedence and voltage out at min or max . I had also thought of contacting Jolida to see if I could change just the Aux input to 10kOhm instead of the now used 100K ohm.
The only thing is the grado pre is still under warrenty and the jolida is not . But I think I'm going to try this mod on the grado PH-1 any way.
The only trick to this is Grado used a tamper proof screw and I'll have go to Loews or home depot with the pre because I do not have a torx bit with a center hole to use on theese screws.
once again I would like to thank all and You Werner to help me conferm
that this problem could be solved although it should not have had come to this IF Grado had offered a little more info about their product ,ALL the others Do!
Alec124c41 I do own the Tc-760LC and did try it on the mc input it did bring up the gain BUT it sounded a bit muddy as if i needed to turn up the treble . I belive this was due to the 20 or 100 ohm load selection switch. You see the grado although is low output it is also a mm cart. and needs to see a 47K ohm load. Thank you for your input also I realy do welcome your help and time.
, IF only it were that easy. You know Moore's law.
Last but not least, Werner, I'm Tryin I'm RealyTRYIN' .
Thanks again Paul

[Werner]

The only big deep dark secret is that the PH1 uses a bog-standard
dirt-cheap circuit with zero original design ideas.

"contacting Jolida to see if I could change just the Aux input to 10kOhm instead of the now used 100K ohm."

Why would you do that?

" The only thing is the grado pre is still under warrenty"

Again, it is cheap and easy to understand. The most expensive bit is probably the external power supply.

"that this problem could be solved although it should not have had come to this IF Grado had offered a little more info about their "

I don't see what additional information Grado would have had to provide.

Although I just remember Grado do have a track record of providing erroneous information

"selection switch. You see the grado although is low output it is also a mm cart. and needs to see a 47K ohm load. "

Not really. I once used a Statement Platinum into a < 20 Ohms current input phonostage. It worked rather well.

[Paul Murro]

Hi again;
Werner , I was thinking along the line of earlier int. amp inputs that used 10k -50k inputs to represent a lower impedence on the input. Just a thought.
Cheap and easy to under stand dose not help the fact that It's my $500.00 we are playin' with.
If Grado had had a spec.sheet for the PH-1, I may have more easily seen that it would be better to use the 4.5mv verison of the cart.. You know ,to see input /output Imp. Volt ,Gain,Etc..
I also used the mc input on my other phono pre, but like I said I found the sound ( although gain was great ) was some what dark like I needed to turn up the treble.
All that said ,I've now strucka happy medium with useing my NAD-754 VCR input thru the Z2 out which I also use for FM . Z2 has its' own remote so I don't have to turn on the whole NAD system on Just the Pre amp stage . Keep jolida on 30-40% up use NAD remote vol to taste.
Noise is low, cart. and records sound great to me.
I am looking at investing in a headphone amp like the Creek OBH-11
that can be used as a pre amp, When not used as a headphone amp with just the right gain to drive the Jolida.
Once again, I realy Do appreciate any and all ideas and help that You and others have ,given as well as time, to this problem of mine and hope to return the favor in kind.
Thanks, Paul

[Paul Murro]

Hi all,
Well here 's the latest. I returned the PH-1 to Grado ,Only to have it sent back with a note saying alls well. NOT!!!
I've since added a shanling PH3000 headphone amp that also acts as a preamp. With the grado Statement low out cart into my tc-760lc in the mc input at 100 ohms,into the PH3000 will drive my AKG K240DF 600 ohm headphones to what I Feel is a loud level.
I then connect to my joilda 302b and all sounds fine the levels are as followes Tc760lc 3/4 of the way up to Ph3000 1/2 way up (without phones connected ) to jolida302 about1/3 the way up. This has gotten me the level and sound I can live with till I can replace TC760 with a better phono Pre this one with a mc input, hopeingly a phonomenaII
with all it's switching in and out I should be able to get the sound I seek.
What happens to the PH-1 ? I connected it to my Yamaha sourround receiver useing my sony Ps-FL7 Pmount DDTT. I have a grado blue in it and had ordered a t4p Gold B4 all this happened so I'LL use them in the liveing room with the PH-1 on L setting where it seems to work best.
Don't get me wrong I like the way the PH-1 sounds with the MM carts with the higher outs .just still don't understand why their $800.00 MI low out dose not drive their PH-1 like it drives the TC760Lc???
But I've had enough !! I'll just have to save for the PhonomenaII or some other MM/MC pre that will do the statement proud.
Thanks all for help and thoughts, Paul

[eliaselias_0]

Hallo all!!!
I think that the Grado's diagram have some mistakes.

I copy the Grado Ph1 Circuit Diagram and made one more (I have the original) but the bass was toooooooooooo loud.

I replaced the C2 to 2nf and now is o.k.

Please check it all about.