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few phono preamps with balanced inputs .. why?

the thin end of the wedge

Postby bo-bo » 14 Nov 2007 20:51

lfleib wrote: You say errors will cancel - what errors? Slight differences between the + and - signals would be cancelled. Couldn't information be lost?

Hi lfleib,

the cancelling of errors that I was referring to, occurs in the differential pair. Any input element (bjt, jfet or valve) has some non-linearity. Now the trick with the differential pair is that what the + branch active element amplifies a pinch too much (for example), is compensated by the brother active element in the - branch that amplifies a bit too little. Now if we only look at the difference between + and - branch of the pair (the principle of a differential amp..), these two distortions nearly cancel each other. And you are right, this happens better if the two active elements are exact twins. In specialist amplifiers you will therefore typically find selected pairs, or dual transistors on the same chip for near perfect symmetry.

By going differential (balanced), some information will indeed be lost. Namely in additional noise: a doubled input circuit means that the effective resistance through which the signal must flow has doubled. Noise voltage scales with square root Resistance, so noise (voltage) goes up by a factor of √2 (= 3 dB). However, no more than that will be lost. So in general, if a balanced amp is adequately designed, you need not fear the loss of information. Actually some of the very best phono stages around are differential. As I mentioned before, I myself am in the process of making a DIY phono stage more or less along the lines of Alan Wright's "RTP 3", which sports a hybrid single stage differential phono circuit for MC. So there you have my preference... By the way: For all of you who want to go deeper into stuff like this and don't hate vacuum valves, Alan has written a phono-minded and good book called "The Tube Preamp Cookbook". It's nicely accessable for the non-technical, and you are in for a good laugh now and then. Available through his enterprise "Vacuum State Electronics".
lfleib wrote: How about resolution, as opposed to linearity?

Resolution of a differential circuit will be at least as good as in a SE circuit. Due to the prabably better linearity of the balanced circuit, one could argue that also its resolving power will be higher. My guess is that fewer by-products (distortion) in balanced operation will give a more complete "unveiled" hearing into the deep down low-level information in the music signal. Of course, this is possible only if the details stay above the noise floor. Therefore the designer must do his/her very best to keep noise as much as possible down in a balanced phono design. The differential input phono circuit is THE area in audio design where special €€ components like dual transistors and non-inductive wire wound or 'bulk metal foil" resistors make sense.
lfleib wrote: When you say "with equal degeneration and bias of the input", equal to unbalanced? This doesn't make sense to me. If the transmission and reception of the signals (+ and -) are not perfectly equal, then the degeneration or cancellation is greater with a balanced input.

Degeneration is an electronics expression for a resistor in series with the 'output' terminal (emitter, source or cathode) of the active element (bipolar junction transistor, jFET or valve respectively). This is often done to tune the 'current out' versus 'voltage in' characteristics of that element. Doing so will add noise (hence the name "degenerate") but improves linearity. Bias, on the other hand, is the term used to describe the voltage and current work-point at which the active element does its job. So, indeed, when I was mentioning "equal degeneration and bias" in a previous post, I meant that the operating conditions for the transistors/valves in balanced respectively unbalanced circuit should be equal, to have a meaningful comparison. BTW In the beautiful under the bonnet pictures of tresaino's amp you see some LEDs used, quite probably, for generating super low-noise bias voltages for some transistors... Bravo, Tresaino!
To conclude some thoughts on the connections and wires. Any noise (hum, radio interference...), or distortion (non-linear contact resistance in connectors, non-perfect dielectrics of insulators,....) introduced before the phono-preamp input can by NO means be separated from the signal itself. That is why the connection between cartridge and phono stage is of so great importance. It is not difficult to do it right, but often some small points are missed....

Regards,
Bobo 8)
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Postby lfleib » 15 Nov 2007 17:18

Hi Bobo,

In a previous post you said that you're not an electrical engineer, but you seem to know quite a lot about this subject. Your answers to my concerns seem definitive. I guess with balanced you give up 3 dB of noise to get potentially hugh benefits in distortion, linearity, headroom etc. I suppose that if someone has a compromised connection on their cartridge or tonearm, it will probably sound bad whether it's balanced or unbalanced.

I feel lucky to have the AHT phono stage, which uses aerospace grade parts to get stellar unbalanced performance. I have heard phono stages overload or sound screechy or harmonically incorrect many times. Often it is hard to sort out the cause of the bad sound. I suppose we don't see more balanced units out there because they are more expensive to make and balanced equipment in the home is not all that common.

Thanks again for your input on this thread.

Regards,
lfleib
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Postby tresaino » 15 Nov 2007 20:40

Bobo, I don't deserve the Bravo, I only took some careful pictures without knowing that I was disclosing some state secrets.. :mrgreen: But the Bravo goes to you! =D> BTW, I understand you are not too far away from 'Belgian Land'? Well, send me a PM and come over, I'll show you the toy in more detail, and we can also listen to some music. But don't take your own prototype with you, I'm getting scared. :P

If we compare how this debate started with where we find ourselves now, I would dare to observe that some of the pagans are now more open-minded towards conversion, I mean balanced conversion. Right, Ifleib and Lpspinner? Of course not. :D :D

Finally, it is funny how technofreaks and audiofreaks depend on each other. The engineer behind my preamp told me to report back to him on perceived differences of sound in balanced connection, which I did. He said he appreciates feedback from people with revealing systems.

This forum is the greatest place for 'balanced' exchanges of view, no false polemics, no insults, great. :wink:
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Postby tresaino » 05 Mar 2008 22:02

Hi Dave, well guess I'm the only one on this forum having this preamp at home. They apparently sold about 10 to 20 units since it came out, but suspect only in Italy (which is already a lot).

In any case, why do you say they appear to be unbalanced? They are advertised as being truly balanced throughout, and the technician who developed this preamp over several years confirmed that to me some time ago over the phone.

I have in the meantime also received their fully balanced preamp with separate power supply, but am still unable to run the phono preamp in balanced output mode as the whole chain is not yet balanced (the amps are still unbalanced). This is going to take me another year, I hope.. :lol:
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Postby Steerpike_jhb » 05 Mar 2008 23:07

One of the problems that arises is interfacing a balanced phono amp with an unbalanced pre- or power amp. If the phono amp is fully balanced from input to output, then you need some kind of balanced-to-unbalanced (balun) converter at the end of it all. If you simply use only the 'hot' and 'ground' signals of the output, to drive an unbalanced power stage (which is electrically the most logical and safe way to do it) , you don't get any common mode noise rejection that is the main goal of a balanced stage.

(I'm working on an almost-clone of Allen Wrights "RTP3" balanced RIAA stage at the moment; getting it to drive an unbalanced power amp is something I have to add to my version. A transformer is the easy way, but I think a long-tailed pair of triodes will be a nice 'experiment'.)
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Postby Steerpike_jhb » 06 Mar 2008 12:24

Only this model
http://www.amaudio.it/Prodotti/mmmcreference.htm
has balanced in/out.
None of the others do.
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Postby tresaino » 08 Mar 2008 08:08

Steerpike_jhb wrote:One of the problems that arises is interfacing a balanced phono amp with an unbalanced pre- or power amp. If the phono amp is fully balanced from input to output, then you need some kind of balanced-to-unbalanced (balun) converter at the end of it all. If you simply use only the 'hot' and 'ground' signals of the output, to drive an unbalanced power stage (which is electrically the most logical and safe way to do it) , you don't get any common mode noise rejection that is the main goal of a balanced stage.

Steerpike, am finding the time to respond to this only now. You are right, but it is not a problem in my case, as there are internal switches on the circuit of the phono preamp just for that: allowing me to change from 'balanced' to 'unbalanced' output.

What I'm currently exploring is whether we can change the step-up transformers from RCA to balanced (both in and out). Some people say that step-ups are also inherently balanced and therefore this is not a problem, however it has been said before that cartridges are 'differential' but not a true balanced device - as for that one would need a center tap on the cartridge coil. I am starting to understand better that it comes down to the wiring from the arm to the step-up and phono preamp..
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Postby Steerpike_jhb » 08 Mar 2008 13:53

What I'm currently exploring is whether we can change the step-up transformers from RCA to balanced (both in and out).


Absolutely you CAN! The only thing you need to pay attention to is to ensure symmetry throughout.

A cartridge is as balanced as you can get. Centre tapping just causes problems and asymmetry.

(i know i promised a technical outline of thissome time back - still getting it intothe word processor!)
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Postby analogous » 08 Mar 2008 19:48

6db is twice the signal level.

The 12AX7/ECC83 is a fairly mediocre triode, ideal for guitar amps. Distortion in a triode is proportional to the signal level. A phono stage using a pair of 12AX7s without negative feedback will have distortion of less than 0.05%, virtually all of it 2nd order harmonic. The 2nd order harmonic distortion is around 300 times higher than the 3rd order harmonic! Distortion wasn't a priority when the 12AX7 was designed. It has massive gain and was intended to be used with negative feedback. With 20db NFB, distortion is down to 0.005%. But 0.1%, perhaps even 1%, 2nd order harmonic distortion would be the same as zero distortion. (I know tresaino uses a SET. A SET usually produces upward 1% distortion per watt!) The human ear is simply not very susceptible to distortion, at least as long as it's 2nd order. (NFB is a necessity with solid-state devices because they have massive distortion, usually up to the 7th or 8th order, and are almost as noisy.)

The balanced circuit reduces even order harmonic distortion and accumulates odd order distortion. Here are real-world measurements from Morgan Jones' Valve Amplifiers, measured at 3.88V (up to ten times higher than that of a phono stage):

Common cathode: 2nd order, -51db (0.28%); 3rd order, -93db (0.0022%)
Balanced: 2nd order, -77db (0.014%); 3rd order, -89db (0.0035%)

The balanced circuit is great for manufacturers since it measures great. But you have reduced the distortion that doesn't matter and increased the ones that do.
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Postby tresaino » 09 Mar 2008 16:15

Hi analogous, you know I actually like tubes, but there is not one single tube in my circuit ! :P

And steerpike, thanks for the offer to eventually post your paper, you must have felt to be off the hook. :D

I spent the evening yesterday reading this whole thread again (I printed the thread a few months ago and then filed it, so that was easy), and actually think I know the way forward: have the + and - leads go through the step-ups without any connection to the ground of the arm nor of the turntable, nor to any metallic screening parts of the cartridge (the last should be already allright). All the cable from the cartridge to the preamplifier must have the active + and - leads independent from the ground and from the screening of the cable.

Steerpike_jhb wrote: I've been trying to explain here all along that the reason for using balanced lines is to eliminate noise picked up on the cable. If that isn't the source of the noise, then there is no point in invoking a technology designed to fix it.


Steerpike, I found your earlier comment interesting because it raises the question whether it is actually worth changing the Bent step-up transformers into XLR. Cable length and therefore noise would not be a problem, as my second TT (a splendid Thorens TD 124 with FR-64S and B-60 currently in assembly) will be rather close to the phono preamp. But I think it is still worth doing, because I am currently obliged to use the phono preamp in RCA output mode as the power amps are not balanced. Not yet, because eventually they will be, so the whole chain from the cartridge to the amps will be fully balanced. So better start preparing for the future now. :wink:
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Postby analogous » 09 Mar 2008 16:49

tresaino, my bad. Evidently mixed you up with someone else. And here you think you know somebody :wink:
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Postby Steerpike_jhb » 12 Mar 2008 19:50

I've put up the *start* of the theory on balanced interconnects here:

http://web.eject.co.za/s8nspawn/hifi/bal/balanced.htm

.. if anyone wants to comment on the format or degree of simplicity. I'm not sure what level of complexity people are looking for in it.

(You may not like the colours! I'm editing it still, so the colours are those that are best for my eyes. I can re-colour it when it's all finished.)
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Postby tresaino » 12 Mar 2008 23:50

Oh my, this will be weekend reading for me, am too busy during the week. I would suggest inverting the colors, it makes it easier to print out and read anywhere. Actually, will read in the train to Paris on saturday, there's a hifi show there and haven't visited one for a couple of years.

And hey, thanks! :D
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Postby tresaino » 17 Mar 2008 09:42

Steerpike, thanks for this useful background, the first part is Carl Sagan, the second one a bit less so. :lol: If I may I would have a couple of – probably stupid – questions:

“Some authors claim that balanced line amplifiers inherently cancel even-order harmonic distortion. This may or may not be true: it is a consequence of the specific circuit design, and not an automatic consequence of it being balanced.”

Does this mean the claim is wrong? Or can balanced circuits actually really help in canceling even-order harmonic distortion?

Also, could you explain briefly what the 600 Ohm standard is all about? For example, does this have any implications for the selection of output and input impedances on pre and power amplifiers? There is no standard for those in XLR electronics, or is there?

A final comment: I would have perhaps added that XLR connectors appear superior to coaxial ones, but people may have different views.
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