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Re: USB Turntables

Postby cafe latte » 23 Jul 2012 03:36

wgb113 wrote:Gotcha. Learning a lot. How about the Music Hall and Pro-Ject? Those are belt driven. Is their weakest link the preamp?

Bill

No, the problem is they are made to a massive budget and made with the person who is going to use them in mind. They are made with the thinking that they will never be fitted with a decent cart, infact the owner will probably only ever use the cart that came with it so the arm does not have to be any good at all. Actually with a cheap rolled off cart a nasty lively arm with add some zing horrible but it will brighten things up. When you realise this then a good bearing is not needed as a bit of noise wont really matter and for the market they are aimed at speed stability wont be high on the priority list either as most perspective owner will happily copy a few albums as a bit of a fad to mp3 and that is it. They are made with the thinking that nobody who takes vinyl replay at all seriously will buy one anyway so very poor is more than good enough.
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CL
Edit .. I dont know how else to explain this but the difference even with a cheap set up is going to be replay that wont inspire at all and will sound worse than a mp3 you downloaded from i tunes or even with a budget proper turntable to replay that will be far better than your mp3s
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby wgb113 » 23 Jul 2012 15:48

@cl,

Thanks for helping clarify. I looked into that Denon that was recommended and it's got numbers as bad as that Audio Technica.

How are the entry-level tables from Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega, Thorens compared to these USB tables? I'd hate to add another box but some of the phono preamps I've seen in my research are surprisingly small. I really don't want to invest heavily in this so if these $300-$500 tables are still not sufficient then I'll probably pass and just bother someone with a better setup to digitize the few LPs I do have/will get. Again, I'm NOT looking to get into vinyl. I think CDs sound better and are easy to rip to a computer for the ultimate in convenience.

I'd prefer to stick with a new table just because you don't know what is going to show up at your door with a used table.

And again, for the record, I don't listen to MP3s on anything other than my iPhone when traveling. All music rips on my computer-based stereo system are AIFF files in CD resolution with the occasional higher-resolution download.

I do appreciate the help.

Bill
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby raphaelmabo » 23 Jul 2012 16:33

In my humble opinion, Music-Hall 2.2 LE, Rega RP1 Performance, or Pro-Ject RPM 1.3, are nice turntables for vinyl newbies that wants something new and inexpensive to play records and enjoying it. This is the lowest and cheapest I would get if I was in the market to buy a new entry level turntable, I wouldn't go below them. They can play music with a heart and soul, but don't expect utmost audiophile quality or perfect sound. They are far from perfect. You get what you pay for. The tonearms are ok. The Music-Hall comes fitted with their own version of an Ortofon cartridge called Tracker which is nice, and the Pro-Ject can be bought with Ortofon 2M Red which is a clear step up from the average budget cartridge. With those you can get an engaging and musical sound. All those are fully manual and a bit fuzzy to set up but once done, they're fun. But please note that they need a good stable platform to show up their best.

You don't get the utmost in details or soundstage in an entry level deck, but you can get a satisfying musical presentation with timing and dynamics.

Thorens does not have a full manual entry level turntable, only automatics or semi-automatics, so here you do pay for the added electronics and mechanics. Thorens is also a bit expensive in the US compared to Europe, so in Europe they are better value. Thorens TD240 is their best automated turntable and it looks and sounds really nice and also works with better cartridges than the supplied AT95E, but this is also quite a bit more expensive than the others mentioned here... It plays music well.

In my view those are perfectly sufficient for your needs, and you may even find that they plays music better than CD's. :) You can get more music and higher sound quality for money if spending this amount on a used turntable, but if wanting new and unused for this money - those are among the best you can get, and in my opinion better than most of the USB-turntables out there.

Let me tell you a bit of my background here - I bought my first turntable in 1988, a Thorens TD280 Mk II. I was going to buy the simplest NAD, but I got the TD280 at a special discount (the owner of the shop was a friend to my mother). At this time I also moved to my own apartment with the simplest NAD amplifier and CD player and Dalis entry level floor standers. While I have changed almost everything in my hi-fi setup since then, I have kept my Thorens. Now, the TD280 was Thorens entry level at that time, below the TD166, 160, 316 and the others. Thorens answer to the Dual 505. While the Thorens is no longer manufactured, you can still buy the Dual... (closest to the TD280 in today's Thorens line is the TD295 MkIV, and it's quite pricey in the US). Despite being entry level, my Thorens still sounds nice and I have only changed the belt and upgraded the cartridge. I do have listened to other turntables, cartridges and setups during my living years, even to the famous Linn LP12 in a horrendous expensive setup at the cost of a new BMW... My point is, that a nice entry level isn't as bad as some believes they are. An entry level can absolutely be a satisfying buy.

Some words about measurements and technical specifications - it is not uncommon for vinyl and analogue to measure worse than CD, but they still can sound more satisfying with more open soundstage and a rhythmic flair. Or take this about tube vs solid state amplifiers, tubes has lots of distortion and many things called bad when measuring them, still they are loved for their sound. Measurements doesn't tell you how it sounds to your ears, it's like looking into a keyhole and believing that the keyhole gives you the experience of the whole room. It doesn't. You have to enter the room, experiencing it fully to really know how it is like. That is also why it is important to listen to equipment before buying them, but if it's not possible for you to do then we simply can make our best in this forum to share our own personal subjective experiences.

About this wow and flutter compared to a Technics that we've seen in many threads lately... The Technics 1200 was a mid level turntable when it was sold as new, not entry level. Mid level turntables can measure better than entry levels yes, no surprise here, but entry levels can still sound very satisfying (measurements doesn't tell the whole story). Comparing a midlevel turntable to entry level is like comparing apples and oranges or bananas and carrot pie. It is true that you can buy used / 2nd hand midlevel turntables today at entry level prices, but if you are only interested in new turntables then this discussion comparing everything to the used 2nd hand Technics is not helpful.
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby wgb113 » 23 Jul 2012 17:47

@raphael,

Thanks for the insight. The main reason that CDs are still my medium of choice is that it is still the dominant format, by a very large margin, for my favorite types of music. I believe high resolution downloads are the future since they, when done right, sound closer to the master tape than anything else out there.

I'll look into the Pro-ject and Music Hall TTs. I started digging around on the Regas and it seems they're only designed to be used with Rega cartridges that, throughout the line, have distortions, especially of the inner groove type. I was surprised because I've always heard their name come up in TT discussions but a co-worker with a P3-24 confirmed that without modification there's no way to adjusted vertical tracking?

I've just started digging into Pro-Jects and am finding that their motors, throughout the line, all exhibit hum issues?? I've got to research that some more.

As I said, my main reason for buying new and under-$500 is piece of mind. The best way to buy a used TT is online, once you start looking locally there's just not much to choose from. Even if there was, the time you'd spend inspecting each one to make sure it's up to snuff isn't worth it to me since I'm not looking to get into vinyl.

The more I learn about TTs the more I just wonder if I should have someone like my co-worker transfer the handful of stuff I have for a fee of some sort...and I see where the "tweaking" part of the audiophile world came from...VINYL! There's so much involved just in order to get it to sound decent let alone what it takes to get something to actually sound good!

Bill
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby raphaelmabo » 23 Jul 2012 18:42

No, Rega turntables are not only designed for Rega cartridges. :) Also note that their tonearms has great reputation and are used by many makers other than Rega. Rega sells OEM tonearms to many makers. You can use other cartridges on Rega turntables and tonearms than Regas own, and there are many in this forum that does that.

VTA is not adjustable on entry level turntables and tonearms, including Rega. But in real life this doesn't mean so much because the error will be so little it doesn't really matter if you are not an audiophile with golden ears. Sound is still better than decent. On more expensive Rega tonearms you adjust VTA by adding shrims to the tonearm. Thorens used to include extensions between tonearm and cartridge instead of VTA, in their turntable packages. Those extensions came in different thickness.

Also note that vinyl not always comes with the same thickness, and older vinyl is often warped so you get different VTA's for every song you play... or you get different VTA's with different records. But it can still sound highly musical and nice. So VTA is not really that important.

VTF - Vertical Tracking Force - and antiskating, are the most important factors in tone arm adjustments, plus the position of the cartridge in the tonearm (to get the stylus positioned right). All the entry level models I have named here allows for adjustment of those, so you can use different cartridges with them.

You do get distortion with vinyl, if you want to be as free from it as possible then you want a turntable with a linear tracking tonearm. Those are extremely expensive. Linear tracking tonearms reads vinyl the same was as they are written so you don't get an error this way. Turntables has non-linear tracking tonearms because it is cheaper and easier to use, and because the error is often not heard by most listeners. With non-linear tracking tonearms you adjust them to give best performance in the middle of the record this will give the least error on the whole record compared to if you set the tracking angle at the beginning or at the end of the record.

Inner groove distortion can be a problem with all turntables (except linear tracking ones), but some cartridges are more sensitive than others. If the cartridge is properly mounted in the tonearm and the tonearm is properly adjusted, then inner groove distortion shouldn't really be a problem.

As for Pro-Ject and hum - hum is because of poor grounding. Grounding can be a problem with turntables yes, all turntables, and entry levels are lesser isolated than more expensive ones. How bad this humming is, is dependent on several factors like the surrounding equipment and how you connect the ground. On my setup, connecting the ground on the amplifier ground-connector provided less successful than connecting it to one of the screws on the chassi to my NAD tape deck. So one may have to experiment a bit to find the best grounding to avoid hum.

My turntable sounds good, not only decent, and I haven't tweaked it at all... by many vinyl lovers loves to tweak. It is not essential to get a good sound, but it has become a hobby in itself to find the best tweak...

Distorsion, VTA, VTF, hum, rumble, wow, flutter, clicks and pops and blah blah... if you are only looking at technical specifications then vinyl is inferior to CDs. Still vinyl sounds highly musical, can have more opened and broader soundstage, sounding more lifelike, more real, having timing and presence. And this even on an entry level turntable. Don't get too much into the specifications, use your ears instead and listen...Vinyl is really simple actually, from my point of view.
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby Aural Addict » 23 Jul 2012 18:43

wgb113 wrote:FWIW I was looking at the more expensive AT-LP240, not the 120 that the review is on. The 240 seems to lack a bunch of the DJ features found on the 120 and seems more geared towards audiophiles? It's very similar to the Music Hall which has gotten decent reviews in the hifi press, but heavier and direct drive.

Bill

The music hall is belt driven, don't let the pitch adjust fool you... I sell them and have had to pull it apart after a cust messed it up. It's a good sounding piece and the build quality is good except for one thing; the clip that holds the arm in place when not in use is utter crap...
I have contemplated buying it for the same reason as this post. However I flung that $125 (dealer price) was better spent on downloading the tracks I'd transfer for listening in the car...
This idea seems like a waste of $$$ to me...
When you see a movie in a theater, everyone accepts the flaws in the video, but if the sound screws up, everyone wants their money back...
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby wgb113 » 23 Jul 2012 19:30

@Aural Addict,

That's the way I'm starting to lean the more I dig into what's required to get decent sound out of vinyl. It may be wiser to lean on a couple of close friends with higher-end TT rigs to do the ripping of the few things I have that can only be found on vinyl.

$500 would buy me loads of new CDs!

Bill
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby raphaelmabo » 23 Jul 2012 20:34

wgb113 wrote:$500 would buy me loads of new CDs!


Or new vinyl. ^^ :)
I have stopped buying CD's. If I want CD sound, I buy from iTunes - it's close enough. No, when I want to buy music in a physical format - I buy vinyl and plays them on my entry level Thorens from the late 80's and enjoys the music. :)
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby majick47 » 23 Jul 2012 23:03

WGB113 it seems you have come to the conclusion that in your situation you would be best served by having a friend with a decent turntable do the ripping or else you could pay a small fee to someone with a decent turntable/good equipment to do it on occasion. Hopefully VE members were helpful in providing info for you to make this decision and your funds will be better spent elsewhere.
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby wgb113 » 23 Jul 2012 23:33

@majick,

It think you're right. That's the approach I'm going to take for now. I DO appreciate everyone here clearing things up for me!

Bill
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby jackfish » 24 Jul 2012 17:23

raphaelmabo wrote:VTA is not adjustable on entry level turntables and tonearms, including Rega.

The Music Hall MMF-2.2 has adjustable VTA.
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby Dinohyus Hollandi » 24 Jul 2012 17:42

And there are several third party solutions for Rega.
Narf!
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby Aural Addict » 26 Jul 2012 01:56

wgb113 wrote:@majick,

It think you're right. That's the approach I'm going to take for now. I DO appreciate everyone here clearing things up for me!

Bill

Glad we could help!
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Re: USB Turntables

Postby wgb113 » 06 Aug 2012 11:57

So...I decided to leave my Saved Searches up and running on various sites and scored a Pro-Ject Debut III and a Ortofon 2M Blue. Hopefully I didn't do too bad on my first table. Are the Pro-Ject phono preamps decent? I'm thinking of swapping out the platter for the Acryl-It and picking up a record clam as well (Bren1).

I went on a bit of a tear at a couple of GoodWills in the area and picked up a bunch of RCA Living Stereo albums and recordings of the Philadelphia Orchestra (hometown boys).

Bill
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