Inner Groove distortion - Can it ever be TOTALLY eliminated?

[mjwraw]

Thanks Flavio - I think what I struggle with is the lack of 'pointers' i.e. changing one aspect, (for example VTF), doesn't seem to make much difference. For example, I can spend 30 minutes aligning to Baerwald, or 15 minutes ensuring overhang is as near to the recommended distance as possible then another 10 making sure the cart is perfectly straight in the headshell. Now, once you've done that, and you're hopeful it must be quite close to being right if not spot on, but there is still a detectable distortion/sibilance at the inner grooves, it would be nice if making slight adjustments to VTF, or anti-skate, or VTA, would make a commensurate difference, for better or for worse, which would then give you a clue where you need to make the subtle final adjustments. But in my experience, once you get your alignment 'quite close but not close enough' it then doesn't really make much difference - I've tried making changes to anti-skate, or changing VTF, within the whole recommended minimum to maximum ranges,(together and separately) and there is no discernible change in the not quite spot on reproductive quality, so no clue as to what subtle change is going to hit the sweet spot - and that's when the frustration starts to creep in !

[cafe latte]

Try the maximum downforce that the manufacture recommends. Dial in zero antiskate, then set the downdorce so the stylus just hovers over the vinyl, mow zero the slip ring and dial in equal antiskate. Also worth checking is that your arm wires are not pulling. This time with stylus guard on again hover the arm with zero antiskate and try to get the arm to hover in different parts of the record, now try to get it to hover at last track area and see if it hovers or swings strongly back towards the rest. It should hover in any position on the record, but some turntables do gently swing towards the rest which is fine, but if there is any force to the swing this may be your problem causing distortion in the last track area, worth a check..
Regards
CL

Did you check the arm is free as described above as this will cause distortion?
Regards
CL

[mikewilliamson]

What exactly is the sound you hear that is characterized as inner groove distortion?
Is it a crackling on the right channel?
Is it there all the time?

I would describe it as sort of "hot". It happens on every record toward the last 5 minutes or so of every side, to varying degrees. If it's a quieter record, it's less noticeable. If it's a loud rock record, I hear it more.

The cymbals lose definition and become somewhat "fuzzy". The vocals tend to display sibilance in "S" sounds. Guitars lose clarity and sound more distorted than normal.

[bpbutler]

I believe I had this problem with my AT95. I had a fair amount of distortion on the whole record, and lots at the end. I discovered the cantilever is not quite straight. So, I adjusted the cartridge so the cantilever (rather than the body) is tangential at the alignment spots. The distortion was reduced, but remained at the end. So I got fed up and switched to an extra AT11E, and that seems to have eliminated the problem.

The interesting thing is the cantilever was offset to the outside, which means as the tonearm reaches the inner grooves, it should have been somewhat self adjusting. That is, the cantilever was out of alignment in the middle of the record, but approached more closely to the tangential ideal near the end. After my realignment attempt, it was closer to tangential in the middle, and less so at the end. However, distortion was improved in both regions.

My best guess is if the cantilever is crooked (not bent, just not centered in the stylus assembly), the cartridge can never operate distortion-free. Given this is a new cartridge, I'm a little irritated, but it was relatively cheap. The 11E (used) was even cheaper, however, and I think it sounds much better.

[mikewilliamson]

Did you check the arm is free as described above as this will cause distortion?
Regards
CL

Thanks for your suggestion and yes, I did try. The tone arm does not swing back at all. Even on the inner grove area it hovers perfectly. So this is not the problem.

[Bob in STL]

What exactly is the sound you hear that is characterized as inner groove distortion?
Is it a crackling on the right channel?
Is it there all the time?

I would describe it as sort of "hot". It happens on every record toward the last 5 minutes or so of every side, to varying degrees. If it's a quieter record, it's less noticeable. If it's a loud rock record, I hear it more.

The cymbals lose definition and become somewhat "fuzzy". The vocals tend to display sibilance in "S" sounds. Guitars lose clarity and sound more distorted than normal.

Thanks for the response. The reason I ask is a recent experience with my new 180 gram copy of Abbey Road. It sounds great but the last ~3 minutes of side two has a crackling "hot" distortion (upper frequencies), predominiently in the right channel. Never hearing this before, I re-cleaned the record but it was still there. Since that time I mounted that same cartridge (Denon DL-110) on a different (and superior) turntable and now the issue is essentially gone except for the last 30 seconds where I can hear it slightly in the long quiet part just prior to the last song ("Her Majesty").

Abbey Road is a long album with lots of information crammed into the grooves. I am going to assume that the better tonearm and better cartridge alignment have alleviated the problem and that the problem, at least for me, was mostly driven by that particular record cramming more than ~23 minutes per side.

I have never noticed this phenomena before on other records. If
it were a prevelant problem it would be enough for me to replace the entire turntable/cartridge combo and start over.

Good luck. I hope you can fix it.

[mikewilliamson]

If
it were a prevelant problem it would be enough for me to replace the entire turntable/cartridge combo and start over.

Has anyone had this problem with my setup?

MUSIC HALL MMF-5
GOLDRING 1042

[cafe latte]

If
it were a prevelant problem it would be enough for me to replace the entire turntable/cartridge combo and start over.

Has anyone had this problem with my setup?

MUSIC HALL MMF-5
GOLDRING 1042

Sorry to bang the same drum, but have you tested the arm like I said?
CL

[mikewilliamson]

Yes, I mentioned a few posts earlier that I did. Arm seems fine.

[zharca]

......s a recent experience with my new 180 gram copy of Abbey Road. It sounds great but the last ~3 minutes of side two has a crackling "hot" distortion (upper frequencies), predominiently in the right channel.

I'm afraid there's nothing you can do to make any copy of Abby Road sound like Hi-Fi, simply because they exceeded the RIAA minimum diameter by nearly 10mm on both sides on the original issue. Once you get beyond the 120mm minimum distortion rises massively. On their "serious" ASD recordings the same EMI engineers liked to finish the side at 130mm or more.

Get it on CD?

[Bob in STL]

......s a recent experience with my new 180 gram copy of Abbey Road. It sounds great but the last ~3 minutes of side two has a crackling "hot" distortion (upper frequencies), predominiently in the right channel.

I'm afraid there's nothing you can do to make any copy of Abby Road sound like Hi-Fi, simply because they exceeded the RIAA minimum diameter by nearly 10mm on both sides on the original issue. Once you get beyond the 120mm minimum distortion rises massively. On their "serious" ASD recordings the same EMI engineers liked to finish the side at 130mm or more.

Get it on CD?

Yes. When I heard the distortion on the end of side 2 I thought the record was dirty. Upon I reading the issue with the OP, I tied the two issues together. I will add that I am now using a different TT with a better arm (old stock Kenwood tonearm on the KD 550). I took great care to align the same cartridge to a Stevenson Arc Protracter that yields the same overhang as the manufacturer's specs. Also tried very hard to set the stylus cantilever parallel to the lines (as opposed to the body of the cartridge). This made a difference and now the distortion is reduce to only about last 30 seconds and once again, only side two. "Her Majesty" will just have to suffer, I'll will take the 99.9% solution on this one.


To the OP --- maybe can try a realignment as I did . If you know the "pivot to spindle" dimension you can make an arc protactor and try to align it once again. I think that aligning the stylus cantilever to the lines inside the protractor grid, rather than the cartridge body, could be helpful.

I would make sure sure are no shims (or any interference) inbetween the cartridge and the headshell, that the VTA is set properly, that the VTF is verifed by a force gauge.

It sounds like you are trying everything and I think you will get it fixed sooner or later. I have no experience with the problem other than this. Maybe you can swap in another cartridge or stylus?

[mikewilliamson]

Ok, an update.

Out of sheer frustration, I took the turntable in to http://www.aheadstereo.com/CMS/

They spent about an hour and a half calibrating everything...And the distortion was still there. This is a dealer of MUSIC HALL turntables, mind you. They tried over and over, making different adjustments without ever being able to eliminate the distortion.

They deduced, since this was a BRAND NEW stylus, and since my previous stylus of the same brand did the same thing, that it's just a limitation of the Goldring. It must not be the best tracker.

They suggested I try the Ortofon Black, which they carry and will let me try out on my turntable to make sure it alleviates the problem.

So...I guess it wasn't alignment or VTF or antiskate or anything else adjustable...It's just the damn cartridge.

When I bring my turntable back in to Ahead Stereo to try the Ortofon, I will update with results.

[zharca]

I think it's unfair to say that the 1042 is to blame. It's a good cartridge with a very good Gyger profile stylus, which actually tracks inner grooves very well. Over here in the UK Noel Keywood was happy to use one for several years as his standard setup with Garrard 401/SME 3012, so definitely not a duffer.

I think the dealer could have demonstrated that the cartridge showed the same issue in a different turntable if he was saying that was the problem, before suggesting that you start spending money.

There's always the definite possibility that the arm bearings are not adjusted correctly.

[davidsrsb]

I still cannot explain my G1042/SME3009s2 very high distortion on 3 and 10 kHz test record tracks. This is direct from cartridge to an oscilloscope input and it looks really odd with 2nd harmonic so high it gets doubling.
The G1042 body is very close to the vinyl, preventing setting the VTA right.