tone arm and cartridge

[peterlea]

hi guys after a bit of luck ve come into a bit of cash around £2000 so ive put as second hand thoughts and will be demoing some turntables. ive been recommended the Nottingham audio spacedeck. so with my left over money which tone arm and cartridge should i be looking at.

ive got a croft micro 25 with phono stage and bw cm8 speakers, i listen to a varied selection although my current vinyle collection is limited to mid eighties and nineties music thankfully my music taste has developed some what.

im in two minds to spend most of the budget on a tone arm and pick up a cheaper cartridge then upgrade this at a later date as my collection grows.

your thoughts and suggestions please.

[Trackside]

You may want to consider an alternative approach if you are buying a completley new vinyl front end ........ find a cartridge you like the sound of and then choose the arm and TT to best match it.

[dlaloum]

The key is definitely getting everything to match

Arm mass should match cartridge compliance/VTF/damping
Cartridge loading requirements should match arm/TT Cabling/Phono stage capacitance load. (and resistive load if relevant/possible)

Personally I would opt for an arm with either low mass or low/mid mass, but having fluid damping (or similar magnetic/electronic damping)... that would give me the ability to use high compliance and mid compliance cartridges.

Arm should be cabled with low capacitance cabling and interconnects from table to phono stage should be low C as well - you want arm to phono stage to add up to no more than 100pf. You can easily add more capacitance, it is difficult/impossible to remove capacitance without recabling.

Similarly the phono stage should have adjustable / switchable capacitance - some cartridges like 400pf total (Ortofon) others like 100pf (Nagaoka, Audio Technica) - so it is nice to be able to add or remove capacitance load to match to the cartridge.
Many phono stages of the 70's had adjustable capacitance - fewer have that now, but if you plan on running MM/MI cartridge it is critical - and even for MC's it can be very helpful. (on MC's it can help to control ultrasonic resonances well beyond hearing range, but which unsettle the phono stage generating nasty Intermodulation distortions which are themselves audible)
For any type of cartridge, the ability to adjust the resistive load (usually at the phono stage) - can be the difference between a cartridge sounding good, and a cartridge sounding excellent.
The MC "standard" is 100ohm - but there are a heck of a lot of MC's that sound better at higher resistances, and a few that sound better at lower R.
MM "standard: is 47kOhm - but many cartridges sound better at R above or below that value (Shure M97xE - 62k ohm, AT440MLa - 32k ohm, etc...)

More food for thought

hope that helps

David

[A.Wayne]

When changing impedance or capacitance it's not that the cartridges work better , what you are effectively doing is adding EQ to the Cartridge factory FR for a system match , specifically your system ...

Regards ,

[peterlea]

this is sounding very different from my UA4 so forgive me does a cartidge sound the same on all arms and turntables. if not how can i start at the cartridge?
surly is seems better to start with a good solid turntable that can hold its speed consistently, then mix and match arms and cartridges to find one i like the sound of.

my amp has a built in phono specs below
Dimensions
Valve compliment
Weight

Frequency Response

Sensitivity

Input Impedance

Output Impedance
Power Consumption

W - 405mm D - 270 mm H - 70mm
3 x ECC83
3 kg

Phono 20 Hz - 20kHz +/- 0.5 dB
Line 0.1 Hz - 200 kHz -1dB into 100 kΩ
Phono 1 mV rms for 0.5V rms output
Line 150 mV rms for 0.5V rms output
Phono 47 kΩ
Line 100 kΩ
< 300 Ω
16 W

i was going to buy a external phonostage but as it has one already i thought i would give it a go.

[Trackside]

Cartridges like loudspeakers probably have the most distinctive sonic 'character' of all hi-fi components so it would seem sensible to choose these on the basis of what you like your music to sound like then fill in the bits in between to get the level of resolution you can afford. This used to be the way hi-fi was bought before the 1980's when the 'source' ( i.e the Linn Sondek) became the holy grail which must come before all other considerations. You will find a 1000 answers as to what bet components to buy but your only guide must be your own ears - go and start auditioning some equipment.

[satanfriendly]

Cartridges like loudspeakers probably have the most distinctive sonic 'character' of all hi-fi components

Really? It is no better than the arm supporting it which is no better than the TT the arm sits on. Get everything in perspective and don't buy in reverse. It is a case of everything in the right place and harmonisation between the three main elements of the front end.

find a cartridge you like the sound of and then choose the arm and TT to best match it.

And then spend all your time trying to get the turntable/arm which suits. Or not as the case may be (and probably will be). Listen to all the components together and then decide. Also watch your budget disappear down the drain.

It's not completely a case of the 'Holy Grail' in the 80's, but at least there was some sense in the thinking. Don't believe 'the God' of cartridges is going to sound the same in the pauper of decks. Yes, that is a bit extremist in statement, but it outlines the general gist of getting your purchase correct. Cartridges can sound immensely different in differing arms on differing decks in the same way as speakers can sound immensely different with different amps.

Would you buy a car starting at the wheels? No, you buy the whole package based on what the whole package does as a total.

If you are going to fork out this sort of money you owe it to yourself to listen to as many decks as possible and where possible.

The Notts Analogue is certainly a good starting point. Their decks and arms work well together (obviously...same manufacturer) and not only very well made, but sound great and a good solid back up from a wonderful company to deal with. If you are going to buy new then I recommend you listen to one.

[Trackside]

I'm not talking about better or worse I'm talking about the sonic character which is more distinct and variable with transducers ( cartridges and loudspeakers) than other components and which is a matter of personal taste and not what is most popular or measures the best. This is also dependent on what type of music you listen to and where. The TT and arm are just like the engine and suspension in a car and their job is to move the body ( cart) from A-B is the best way possible so yes you need to buy as a package but there are different way of looking at it .

[satanfriendly]

Point taken, but sorry to think the cartridge is going to set the sonic character of the system is basic misunderstanding. It won't. To the same token as those who believe speakers are going to present the presidence for the end result. They won't. They are no better than what went before them. They will only reproduce what is input at the start. They will not work miracles.

Yes they sound different, but that is all.

Sonic character is not a reflection of the end product and neither will it dictate how accurate the end result is. It is just a signature.

To get things correct there needs to be balance from beginning to end and there needs to be compatibility and there needs to be a synergy in there. The only thing that will display this (other than following the procedures as to matching) is to listen for yourself.

Personally (and after 35 years of vinyl (which is still naff all comared to some on here)) I would never consider a cartridge and then follow in reverse. If I take a blind risk, then it will be based on others opinions and by following the compatability rules and calculations.

As much as I hate Linn products and particularly a certain Mr IT (I'm an Ariston man and so it comes natural), some things I believe were correct in his/their thinking and it makes sense if you look at it from the correct perspective.

And just in case, yes I do get a little tetchy about this issue as I hate to see money wasted.

[dlaloum]

When changing impedance or capacitance it's not that the cartridges work better , what you are effectively doing is adding EQ to the Cartridge factory FR for a system match , specifically your system ...

Not quite - if you are following the factory specifications for loading - then you are providing the factory specified EQ to achieve the sound profile as designed.

If you are not running the factory specified loading (EQ if you like) then you are listening to something that has been randomly EQ's (like a kid twiddling with your treble and bass knobs at random).

Also each designer voices his cartridges differently - if your prefer a different voicing for whatever reason then you are starting to EQ the system - this is the same as using the treble/bass knobs of course - but the starting point should be the original manufacturer specified setting - and from there you can adjust to taste, system matching, whatever!

[dlaloum]

The reason the cartridge and the speaker should be the first place to focus, is that they are the "least perfect" components.

Both will have variations from neutral frequency response well within the audible range - sometimes of the order of 20db + (particularly speakers!)

Here are some typical frequency response plots for a speaker generally considered to be among the most neutral... (one of the best)


Here is the Frequency response plot for the same speaker "In room"

(speaker plots borrowed from http://www.regonaudio.com/Digital%20Roo ... ction.html - an excellent article!)

Those rises and drops in the chart are clearly audible "in room" - and will dominate the sound of a system...
Look at the peak on the in-room chart at 3.5kHz followed by the trough at around 5kHz....

Similarly with cartridges...
Here is a V15V fitted with SAS stylus... not even close to a flat frequency response - although the variations on this cartridge will be far less obvious than the ones on the speaker shown above.


So my personal opinion, is you should start by choosing those components that are "least perfect" - because these are the components that will have an immediately noticeable and audible signature that can overwhelm the system.

Then from there, you proceed to the rest of the system, and dial things in.

The other way around you choose something that has a subtle/minor impact on the sound, and then add to it something that has a "gross" impact... it seems silly to me!

The starting point (IMO) should be neutrality - attempting to achieve a system that reproduces the original recording without adding or detracting.
Once you get as close as you can to that goal, then you add the "salt and pepper" and adjust EQ, tweak the room, work on making it suit your personal taste.

The alternative is what I call "audio roulette" (similar to russian roulette) - with the results being just as random.

bye for now

David