Why Should The Legendary Td124 Be Better Than My Td320 Mkii

[gillsev]

Analyzing the TD 124 with the various drive transfer from motor to pulley via belt, and from pulley to idler wheel to platter ... will be noisier.



Do you think that's really a better drive system than my TD 320 MkII with just a belt?



I think my TD 320 MkII would be much quieter!

So why is the TD 124 the most hailed TT? Is it just for nostalgic reasons, but not a real performer??

[JaS]

Hi,
The TD124 seems to enjoy the advantages of belt drive (low noise transmission from the motor) with those of an idler drive (namely torque). Why does it sound better than a TD320? Maybe it's the expensive motor, the size/design of the main bearing, the weight/design of the platter, the design/materials of the chassis or all of these put together?

To be honest comparing an no-expense spared professional turntable with a decent domestic deck from another era is like comparing apples and oranges. Do they sound different? Yes! Does the TD124 perform better than a TD320? In a decent plinth I'd have to say yes

Regards,
JaS

[LousyTourist]

well I went from a TD125 to a TD124.

The 125 has a very similar drive mechanism to the 320 as far as I can see.

I've kept the 124 as it has more bass, more slam, more verve to the music.

Same tonearm and cartridge, just moved it from the 125 to the 124, so the only thing different, really, is how the platter turns.

[gillsev]

well I went from a TD125 to a TD124.

The 125 has a very similar drive mechanism to the 320 as far as I can see.

I've kept the 124 as it has more bass, more slam, more verve to the music.

Same tonearm and cartridge, just moved it from the 125 to the 124, so the only thing different, really, is how the platter turns.

See, that's what I don't understand (especially when you've used the same tonearm and cartridge). How could it sound different by the platter's rotation? As far as I know, as long as the platter rotates perfectly at 33 1/3 rpm, that's the ideal TT. Most TT could do that!

[Mark E Smith's Dentist]

See, that's what I don't understand (especially when you've used the same tonearm and cartridge). How could it sound different by the platter's rotation? As far as I know, as long as the platter rotates perfectly at 33 1/3 rpm, that's the ideal TT. Most TT could do that!

If it was that simple all turntables would sound as good as each other and we all know this is not the case.

There is noise introduced from the motor, the bearing and the outside world. The less of this there is the more information gets to the stylus. You might think this is small beans but think about the scale of amplification from cartridge to speakers and it might start to make sense.


There is drag from the bearing, the motor and the stylus - how well the motor overcomes this effects how well the turntable portrays the micro-detail needed for realistic reproduction.

I've just scratched the surface here but turntable design theory is, as the old saying goes, like an unwanted erection in class - the more you think about it the harder it gets!



JT

[LousyTourist]

See, that's what I don't understand (especially when you've used the same tonearm and cartridge). How could it sound different by the platter's rotation? As far as I know, as long as the platter rotates perfectly at 33 1/3 rpm, that's the ideal TT. Most TT could do that!

Don't be so quick to dismiss 50% of the information retrieval from the record. Time is a critical aspect to the reproduction and there is more authority to a TD124 than there is in a TD125.

[user510]

If the goal were to achieve the lowest possible signal to noise ratio, then just about any suspended belt drive turntable would be an obvious choice over any idler/belt-idler or any direct drive design.

And there was a time during the sixties...and seventies when conventional wisdom suggested that what a turntable needed to do was produce the lowest possible signal to noise ratio while at the same time producing the least amount of wow/flutter. After that the "real job" was up to the tonearm and cartridge to reproduce the musical goods.

Let say you can produce a TD124 in perfect "as new" mechanical condition and compare that directly to a TD321. Given appropriate tonearms and cartridges. Optimal conditions being met for either deck. Which would you prefer? Is that the question?

I can't bear witness to that comparison because I haven't heard any of the TD3xx decks. I have heard the TD124. And I have compared it against a Teres 145 and a few different Thorens TD150 and TD160 decks.

Clearly these players all have a different signature sound when compared against each other.

Any deck powered by a synchronous motor and is belt driven will have a recognizable sound. It may not be noticeable to you until you have spent time listening to decks with different drive systems. But the sound of a synchronous motor powered drive train, to me, is one of absolute timeliness.

Always and forever on the mark and relentlessly driving the pace of the music forward. To me this is a good quality.

On the negative side of this design is the reality of a cogging synchronous motor. Each motor revolution is divided into a series of forward impulses, like little kicks in the rear that propel the motor around and around. These little kicks are sharp enough to minutely stretch the elastic drive belt as it pulls against the driven pulley at the platter. The effect is one of an elastic belt that stretches and contracts several hundred times per platter revolution. Thusly chopping up the flow of the music. The effect is so minute that you may not notice it, until you have listened to turntables of different drive designs.


The Teres, with its limp-wristed DC motor and its minimally intrusive controller will have a certain sense of flow to the music. No cogging whatsoever. There is a sense of liquid flow to the music. The Teres also enjoys a substantial bearing and platter. One of its forte's is the ability to extract high amounts of detail from within the record groove. Detail, air and flow. But the Teres is also laid back sounding. Not the most dynamic deck out there. Not when compared head to head against a TD124.

The TD124, with its shaded pole induction motor drives a large idler pulley that is --damped-- and pitch-controlled by means of an eddy brake from underneath. This eddy break will tend to smooth whatever cogging its motor experiences. This cogging is further damped by an additional element in the drive chain, the idler wheel that gets its drive off the capstan shaft at the top of the idler pulley. So by the time power is delivered to the driven 9 lb iron platter, flow is relatively smooth and free of the cogging effect.

The td124 can sound, when at its best, timely and with a very smooth un-interupted sense of flow to the music...or it can sound, when in need of service, as if it has no sense of timing whatsoever. It can sound ponderous and completely without pace. It all depends upon the mechanical condition of the drive train components.

Also, if you crave detail and air, the Thorens TD124 can deliver a surprising amount of it, but only when in optimal mechanical condition. As the motor bushings wear, as the idler tire hardens, as the platter bearings get sloppy, this quality gradually goes away.

TD124 and noise: Bearing rumble, drive train rumble. When in worn condition, such noises are high. When in optimal mechanical trim, such noises are quite low. Surprisingly low. Better than you'd expect.

Due to its idler drive dna, the TD124 delivers a sharper dynamic component. Those explosive moments within the record groove get propelled into and out the speakers with a more efficient delivery. Therefore you should notice a sharper, keener sense of rhythm. Drums leap out into the room with more suddenness. etc. This quality can be addictive. You only get this with an idler drive...!


On the other hand; with a suspended belt drive turntable, the only wear parts are:
belt
motor
platter bearing

These are much less complicated to maintain. In most cases, just routinely replace the drive belt, keep some oil in the platter bearing and don't accidentally bend the the motor shaft. Performance remains consistent from decade to decade. Let us not forget to periodically adjust the spring suspension for vertical bounce...!

But the TD124 needs a mechanic. Like a bicycle mechanic...only it is for turntables. Perhaps the work is a cross between clock repair, bicycle repair and light transmission repair.


When considering the prospect of investing in either of these directions one has to consider it like this:

TD124, requires the most maintenance to sound its best. Can you provide this?

Mitch cotter designed suspended chassis, synchronous motor, elastic belt drive, AR, Thorens, Linn, etc. Minimal maintenance but does require belt replacement, mininimal lube, periodic chassis adjustments, etc.

Teres: Even less maintenance requirement when compared to all of the above.

-Steve

[gillsev]

Very elaborate response, Steve! Thanks so much for a detailed analysis on the drive and noise factor. This was the kind of response I was waiting for, which is something that I need to study and digest further.

Are you Steve Clarke from the Analog Department by any chance??

[user510]

Are you Steve Clarke from the Analog Department by any chance??

That would be me.

Glad my replay was of some use.

-Steve

[gillsev]

Let say you can produce a TD124 in perfect "as new" mechanical condition and compare that directly to a TD321. Given appropriate tonearms and cartridges. Optimal conditions being met for either deck. Which would you prefer? Is that the question?

THAT is the question! Which would I prefer to have under optimal conditions? After reading your analysis, I would now prefer the TD124 without a doubt.

But the TD124 needs a mechanic. Like a bicycle mechanic...only it is for turntables. Perhaps the work is a cross between clock repair, bicycle repair and light transmission repair.

When considering the prospect of investing in either of these directions one has to consider it like this:

TD124, requires the most maintenance to sound its best. Can you provide this?

That is one of the reasons why I am procrastinating on a TD124, finding a good "mechanic" who knows how to service this professionally (maybe someone like you!). Second, finding a TD124 in optimal condition would almost be rare to none. I've heard a lot of horror stories from Ebay (and I'm not about to risk it).

My TD 320 MKII on the other hand may not be as refined as the TD124 but would require the least maintenance (as you've mentioned), and would last me decades (if not a lifetime) of worry free service. So I think mine would suffice for now.

BUT someday ... maybe someday, when I can find a perfect TD124 will I have the guts to get it! For now, it will remain a dream.

[LousyTourist]

I bought my td124 in June and it took until sometime in August before it was 'ready'.

Steve helped me on it IIRC. Certainly his website and the pictorals helped immensely.

I too started by looking for someone to 'do the work' for me. There were a couple leads in town that I found by calling needle doctor. Ultimately I was swayed into performing the work myself and I am glad I did.

Refurbishing the motor isn't as hard and scary as it seems, assuming you have patience and a modicum of mechanical aptitude, on the order of stacking alphabet blocks.

The rest involves cleaning and lubing, although as I said earlier, it can take months due to whatever painstaking level you want to take it to. Being a perfectionist, I took my time. It was fun besides and I know intimately how well the tt is behaving.

[user510]

Refurbishing the motor isn't as hard and scary as it seems, assuming you have patience and a modicum of mechanical aptitude, on the order of stacking alphabet blocks.

That's about how I see it. Easy. Simple. Not complicated.

At the time I was making those articles with photos, there were no replacement motor bushings to be had. So I contracted a machine shop to make a small run of them for me. (that supply sold out long ago)
Now, as I occasional peruse the eBay offerings I see at least two different vendors offering these items...but at about twice the price I was offering them for. It is a cnc lathe part. At least those items are now available and fairly common. Before they were not.

It is possible I made an overstatement when suggesting that the TD124 requires a ride-along-mechanic. More likely, it just requires a semi-annual check-up that is more in-depth than your average belt-drive turntable. The unit is built in such a way that every part of it can be refurbished.
As we now know, future offerings from Thorens, or anyone else, would not be of this level of build quality.

To me these turntables are priceless. Even at today's inflated second hand prices, you couldn't reproduce one of these for that amount.

-Steve

[gillsev]

As we now know, future offerings from Thorens, or anyone else, would not be of this level of build quality.

To me these turntables are priceless. Even at today's inflated second hand prices, you couldn't reproduce one of these for that amount.

-Steve

This is very true of today's Thorens ... if it is still worth the "Thorens" name on it.

I thought you might be interested to read this guy's comments on Audiogon about today's Thorens, i.e. the Thorens TD295 Mk4 turntable ...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1120421948&read&keyw&zzthorens

[gillsev]

Now on the market ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220548832954&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

So I can get that TD124.

Please help me get it ...
Thanks