SL-1200MK2 arm and phono lead upgrade

[cafe latte]

Let's get back on track here. We're discussing 1200 phono lead upgrade
where I will post a comment, followed by cafe latte's rebuttal

The sort of post I was on about...
CL

[Dunbar]

After having rewired lots of sl1200s and tried endless cables I can say that any cable you will find around will most probably be better than the stock ones used by panasonic. It can all be backed up by theory if one wishes to look for it, but certainly the improvement will be audible. This applies both to the internal wires and external cables.
You don't need to spend lots of money on them if you don't want to. A nice unbalanced cable can cost you £1 for a metre (althought I would advise to pick a miniature balanced mic cable). For internal wiring 33-34awg Litz ofc copper won't cost more than £4. Silver plated, teflon coated copper wire is quite cheap as well, and although I am not a fan of silver plated wires, it does make a big difference from the stock ones and it is to the liking of lots of people who tried it.

In principle continuous wiring from the cart to the preamp is much preferable, but taking into consideration all the parameters that are likely to have an impact on the sound and practicality of such an arrangement it may not work out as expected.

The portion of the signal wires that is outside the tonearm (i.e. in a continuous wiring arrangement) is certainly good to be shielded (and if one is willing to DIY using braided shields, sleeves etc it shouldn't be a problem). However, this does not mean that using the wires unshielded you will necessarily have a problem. You are just taking a risk. So if you have the flexibility of trying both shielded and unshielded arrangements do it. If EMI and RFI in your environment do not have an effect of the signal the unshielded cable is likely to perform better than the shielded one. But certainly not a risk to take if you are spending lots of money or if your set up constantly changes.

[cafe latte]

After having rewired lots of sl1200s and tried endless cables I can say that any cable you will find around will most probably be better than the stock ones used by panasonic. It can all be backed up by theory if one wishes to look for it, but certainly the improvement will be audible. This applies both to the internal wires and external cables.
You don't need to spend lots of money on them if you don't want to. A nice unbalanced cable can cost you £1 for a metre (althought I would advise to pick a miniature balanced mic cable). For internal wiring 33-34awg Litz ofc copper won't cost more than £4. Silver plated, teflon coated copper wire is quite cheap as well, and although I am not a fan of silver plated wires, it does make a big difference from the stock ones and it is to the liking of lots of people who tried it.

In principle continuous wiring from the cart to the preamp is much preferable, but taking into consideration all the parameters that are likely to have an impact on the sound and practicality of such an arrangement it may not work out as expected.

The portion of the signal wires that is outside the tonearm (i.e. in a continuous wiring arrangement) is certainly good to be shielded (and if one is willing to DIY using braided shields, sleeves etc it shouldn't be a problem). However, this does not mean that using the wires unshielded you will necessarily have a problem. You are just taking a risk. So if you have the flexibility of trying both shielded and unshielded arrangements do it. If EMI and RFI in your environment do not have an effect of the signal the unshielded cable is likely to perform better than the shielded one. But certainly not a risk to take if you are spending lots of money or if your set up constantly changes.

Apart the difficulties you mentioned regarding unshilded cables you did not mention that thin armwire even in a diy screen will be rather high capacitance if the length is at all realistic. It is why with regular rca cable the conductors are spaced with a foam liner to keep the capacitance down. As I have said before all this trouble is to save two or three solder connection which when you look at the few hundred or so solder joints in the signal path in the phono preamp the cons far outway any percieved benefits. Higher capacitance, diy shielded cable risking interference for illiminating two solder joints.. Not worth it.
Regards
CL

[Dunbar]

One may certainly cause problems if decides to DIY the cable without knowing what to do. However, plenty of advice is available in forums and it is quite a rewarding process if one enjoys this sort of things.

Also, the advantage of the continuous wiring is not simply to eliminate two solder joints (and the PCB traces). The aim is to maintain the flow of the signal path unchanged from the one stage of amplification to the other. I.e to the extend this is possible, use conductors of the same gauge, material, structure, insulation etc. Obviously, if the initial part of the path (i.e. tonearm wires) do not meet some requirements, there is not reason to extend them externally all the way to the phono stage. A separate phono lead would be a better option in such a case.

Regarding the capacitance:

Thin wires do not cause high capacitance. Quite the opposite actually. The per metre (or per foot) Capacitance depends on three parameters. Size of conductor (the smaller the conductor the less capacitance), the dielectric constant of the insulation (the lower this value the lower the capacitance) and the distance between the active conductors (the larger the distance the smaller the capacitance. In other words, thin wires (conductors), with sufficient distance from each other and a low dielectric involvement (like Teflon, PE etc) will produce very low levels of capacitance. You can easily get a 50pF per meter.

Also the absence of the shield (which obviously will require the use of 2 conductors per channel) will keep the capacitance levels even lower. If a shield is used, the capacitance will depend on the overall arrangement of the cable.

Keeping the length of the cables as short as possible is always a good idea. Not only because capacitance will increase as length increases but because any negative impact a cable may have one the signal will be prolonged.

Keep in mind that a cable (no matter how good it is) it cannot improve the signal. A good cable is the one that does the least possible damage to the original signal. In an ideal situation no cable at all would be the best solution.

It is useful to remind this to people (including myself) who keep spending money and time on cables

[Trackside]

I'm yet to be convinced the stock Technics cable is detrimental to performance whatever the technical and theoretical arguments. My SL-1200 sounds very good now and I'm at a stage where I've eliminated the obvious sonic flaws from my vinyl playback and I doubt what I'm missing from further upgrades is preventing me from enjoying my records.

[Dunbar]

I very much agree with you regarding the enjoyment aspect which is what matters after all. Something being technically better does not mean that it will be perceived as “better” in terms of enjoyement.
I see two reasons for someone to carry on with such an upgrade (or a similar one). Either he/she has experienced the sonic differences a cable can bring (I.e by trying someone else's cable, tonearm, turntable etc) and he liked them, or because he/she is curious enough to try and generally enjoys playing around with cables and turntables.
There is no reason to change something that works fine for you.
Then again there are people who have a constant drive for improvement (and by doing what they do have contributed a lot; when they manage to hold back their desire to impose their views and findings on others).

[cafe latte]

We must remember NO cable manufacturer has ever agreed to blind test their wares in all the years the cable debate has beeen going on. Why is rather simple, first the human brain cant detect audable differences unless it is instantanious, in other words we cant remember what we heard exactly even when it was only a few seconds ago which is why I am very sceptical of those who spend a few hours rewiring their TT then report it sounds sooo much better as thir is no way yo can remember the before.
Secondly it cant be done and the few tests that have been done prove this. Imagine how good an advertisement it would be if a cable manufacturer in blind tests showed how their cables were better than the rest, but they dont. Unless your TT cables are damamged or the high capacitance ones spend you money and time doing an upgrade that will actually improve things sonically, just my opinion.
Regards
CL

[Dunbar]

Hi cafe latte. I am afraid that I cannot agree at all with what you just said. First of all this is not how human brain and memory work neither the way a combination of sounds is perceived and analysed. To give you an example, if you listen to a tune with the bass adjusted to be very low (or the tops very low) and an hour later you listen to same same tune in the correct balance you can easily remember and tell the difference. The reason is that you perceive each sound in relation with the other sounds that form the entire section of music. And the balance between the frequencies produced is memorable. So both bass and tops are there in either of your trials, but they appear in a different balance. This is exactly how one can remember and tell the difference between cables. It is not too difficult for one to identify when a cable delivers the vocal part of a specific recording with much weight or very thin in comparison to the rest of the instruments. It is not difficult for one to identify if the recording is reproduced with clear layering or not. Some differences can be very obvious and some not.

Also, what I don't understand is how come and you argue that a different cable will not make a difference and at the same time you keep mentioning the capacitance of the cable and that high capacitance should be avoided and it is a valid reason for change. So does capacitance -according to you- have an audible effect or not? And if it does, don't you think that this capacitance is nothing but the sum of different parameters in a cable (and these parameters make cables different from each other).

I do understand that lots of people believe that all the cables are the same. I don't agree but I see no reason why I should persuade them otherwise. All the information is out there so anyone can have it and either accept it or reject it. Also what does this statement mean?
“We must remember NO cable manufacturer has ever agreed to blind test their wares in all the years the cable debate has beeen going on”.

Probably no washing machine manufacturer has done it either. Anyone who wishes to do a blind test can get a few cables and do it. I don't think that a permission by the manufacturer is required.

Again, just to make clear that different does not mean better. This is up to each of us to judge for ourselves.

Anyway, I did not mean to get into such a discussion about if cables matter or not. Just to express my opinion about the specific upgrade. If however, one feels that this may take too much effort for no gain there is no reason to do it.

[Trackside]

Cable capacitance effects the high frequency response of MM carts and excessive resistance in a cable will atenuate parts of the frequency - all this can be easily measured using commonly available software. If a cable therefore has low enough capacitance and resistance not to alter the frequency response I'm very intrigued to know what 'better' cable brings to the mix and if you can hear it I reckon it should be measurable.

[cafe latte]

Hi cafe latte. I am afraid that I cannot agree at all with what you just said. First of all this is not how human brain and memory work neither the way a combination of sounds is perceived and analysed. To give you an example, if you listen to a tune with the bass adjusted to be very low (or the tops very low) and an hour later you listen to same same tune in the correct balance you can easily remember and tell the difference. The reason is that you perceive each sound in relation with the other sounds that form the entire section of music. And the balance between the frequencies produced is memorable. So both bass and tops are there in either of your trials, but they appear in a different balance. This is exactly how one can remember and tell the difference between cables. It is not too difficult for one to identify when a cable delivers the vocal part of a specific recording with much weight or very thin in comparison to the rest of the instruments. It is not difficult for one to identify if the recording is reproduced with clear layering or not. Some differences can be very obvious and some not.

Also, what I don't understand is how come and you argue that a different cable will not make a difference and at the same time you keep mentioning the capacitance of the cable and that high capacitance should be avoided and it is a valid reason for change. So does capacitance -according to you- have an audible effect or not? And if it does, don't you think that this capacitance is nothing but the sum of different parameters in a cable (and these parameters make cables different from each other).

I do understand that lots of people believe that all the cables are the same. I don't agree but I see no reason why I should persuade them otherwise. All the information is out there so anyone can have it and either accept it or reject it. Also what does this statement mean?
“We must remember NO cable manufacturer has ever agreed to blind test their wares in all the years the cable debate has beeen going on”.

Probably no washing machine manufacturer has done it either. Anyone who wishes to do a blind test can get a few cables and do it. I don't think that a permission by the manufacturer is required.

Again, just to make clear that different does not mean better. This is up to each of us to judge for ourselves.

Anyway, I did not mean to get into such a discussion about if cables matter or not. Just to express my opinion about the specific upgrade. If however, one feels that this may take too much effort for no gain there is no reason to do it.

Ok , first the thing re the human brain is fact not fiction regardless what you may think we cant remember what we just heard this is scientifically proven. We have an idea of overall what we heard and can maybe say the bass is better but we cant pick details, not my tests but it is really true. What I am talking about is noticing the sublties blind and tests prove we just dont here them unless the changes are instantanious changes. The capacitance thing is one of the few things that does effect sound. MM carts are designed to work at a particular capacitance and if the capacitace is not correct, then the frequency curve or the cart is shifted and it can be a quite severe shift. The shift often affects the treble so it is very important to get the overall capacitance correct ( the lead capacitance added to the internal phono preamp capacitance). With MC it is less of an issue but it still has an affect, but nothing like it does with MM's. Capacitance with turntable cables is one of the few things that do matter. Capacitance has no effect that is known on other interconnects in your hifi, just the cable that runs to the phono preamp.
Washing machine manufactures and powder manufactures have both put the wares up to tests against other produces, but no cable manufacture has done a blind test. Blind tests with audio are important as perception bias comes into play. In the non industary based blind tests that have been done non have managed to pick the 'correct' cables even when the listeners are the hifi press that we believe so much and these are the guys telling us which are the best cables... I am not making this up and currently no hifi mag reviews different cables blind either.
I bulid amps for a hobby from scratch and I have been messing around with cables and hifi for 25 years and the cable thing except capacitance is mostly rubbish.
Regards
CL

[Dunbar]

Fair enough. We just don't share a common ground on the topic.

[Trackside]

I've just hooked up 12" of cards twisted pair tonearm wire to run externally from the pins on my DL-103 to my V-LPS phonostage placed at the side of the tonearm. I used some small O rings to secure the wire to the outside of the arm and there is a slack loop curling up from infront of the pivot to ensure there is no restriction to arm movement (The stock earth wire is still connected). Despite this wire being external the 50hz mains hum spike is lower than with the stock wire and there are less peaks further up the frequency range. Initial listening tests indicate there 'may' be a slight increase in detail but it's subtle. I will listen further and see if any sonic gains are worth the hassle of ripping it apart to rewire it. Then again why not just run it like this

[cafe latte]

I've just hooked up 12" of cards twisted pair tonearm wire to run externally from the pins on my DL-103 to my V-LPS phonostage placed at the side of the tonearm. I used some small O rings to secure the wire to the outside of the arm and there is a slack loop curling up from infront of the pivot to ensure there is no restriction to arm movement (The stock earth wire is still connected). Despite this wire being external the 50hz mains hum spike is lower than with the stock wire and there are less peaks further up the frequency range. Initial listening tests indicate there 'may' be a slight increase in detail but it's subtle. I will listen further and see if any sonic gains are worth the hassle of ripping it apart to rewire it. Then again why not just run it like this

As the wires are twisted what is the capacitance of the wires? I realise it is not a major concern for MC, but it is if you ever decide to fit a different type of cart. Also twisted or platting wires does reject well hum, but there is no beating decent shilding. What may be worth experimenting with for possible marginal gains (maybe) is twisted arm wires, but just connect to decent rca sockets, then do the rest of the run with decent well shielded rcas to the pre amp. This way the capacitance increase should be small as the arm wires are short and platting them with give an extra level of hum rejection. The rcas if well sheilded will not pick up any hum anyway.
Regards
CL

[Trackside]

Not concerned with capacitance with my DL-103 and 12" is probably too short for it to be an issue if I was using an MM cart. Thought about making an external plate for phono sockets like KAB sell but it's simpler to just attach my V-LPS to the side of the plinth and run the cables direct. The stock setup has 4 dry connectors and 6 solder joints per lead and this has 2 dry and 2 solder joints so I'm not minded in introducing more as reducing these may well be a significant factor in any sound quality improvements esp when dealing with a very low level signal. This rig will be for vinyl archiving so when done I can easily resort back to stock. Still not 100% sure it sounds better either.........