Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

compact disc, dacs, mp3 players and streaming audio
Erin1
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 01 Nov 2019 12:07

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 11:48
Erin1 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 11:07

Back in the time before digital audio the deficiencies of vinyl annoyed me. I used to wonder why nobody had invented a disc that didn't wear out, and why there wasn't a way of preventing clicks and pops. I couldn't stand having to buy a new stylus because the old one had worn out.
First it is not possible, because of the mechanical process. Second, not wearing out doesn`t go together with a capitalistic ideology, where things have to spoil to buy new ones.
But is interesting, CD doesn`t wear out and they are selling new and new reissues. Do people think that new reissue sounds better and they throw the old one away or sell it? :wink: Because otherwise there would be no market for so many reissues on a CD.
I got suckered into buying a remastered cd once. It was loudness war crap and hurt my ears. I never bought a remaster ever again.

Of course, the record industry is capitalistic. This I believe is why the vinyl records are now promoted in the hifi magazines and the popular media. I now see record players in the background of TV advertisements. The media is trying to make them fashionable, so people will buy turntables and records and cartridges and stylus!
If I did not already own records from when I was younger, I would not bother to get into this craze. It is very expensive.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 01 Nov 2019 13:02

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 11:48
Erin1 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 11:07

Back in the time before digital audio the deficiencies of vinyl annoyed me. I used to wonder why nobody had invented a disc that didn't wear out, and why there wasn't a way of preventing clicks and pops. I couldn't stand having to buy a new stylus because the old one had worn out.
First it is not possible, because of the mechanical process. Second, not wearing out doesn`t go together with a capitalistic ideology, where things have to spoil to buy new ones.
But is interesting, CD doesn`t wear out and they are selling new and new reissues. Do people think that new reissue sounds better and they throw the old one away or sell it? :wink: Because otherwise there would be no market for so many reissues on a CD.
Brush up on Capitalism, its essence is delivering better products for less money, period. And, it was indeed the interest in a better recorded music storage medium than LP which lead to the CD. At its introduction the CD was seen as being better in all manner than the LP, an impression which lasted over 30 years, until the advent of iTunes, an example of Capitalism working again, to instantly place any music ever recorded on any medium at our fingertips. WOW!

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 01 Nov 2019 13:21

Sterling1 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 13:02
Brush up on Capitalism, its essence is delivering better products for less money, period. And, it was indeed the interest in a better recorded music storage medium than LP which lead to the CD. At its introduction the CD was seen as being better in all manner than the LP, an impression which lasted over 30 years, until the advent of iTunes, an example of Capitalism working again, to instantly place any music ever recorded on any medium at our fingertips. WOW!
Yes, but seems that now capitalism reinvented LP record as superior audiophile format in western countries. In Japan they are trying to reinvent a Compact disc as Blu-spec CD2, SHM-CD or Hi-res CD as a superior audiophile format at acceptable price. So both CD and vinyl are good tools to make a profit.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 01 Nov 2019 13:46

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 13:21
Sterling1 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 13:02
Brush up on Capitalism, its essence is delivering better products for less money, period. And, it was indeed the interest in a better recorded music storage medium than LP which lead to the CD. At its introduction the CD was seen as being better in all manner than the LP, an impression which lasted over 30 years, until the advent of iTunes, an example of Capitalism working again, to instantly place any music ever recorded on any medium at our fingertips. WOW!
Yes, but seems that now capitalism reinvented LP record as superior audiophile format in western countries. In Japan they are trying to reinvent a Compact disc as Blu-spec CD2, SHM-CD or Hi-res CD as a superior audiophile format at acceptable price. So both CD and vinyl are good tools to make a profit.
Capitalism has not reinvented or even revisited the LP. Millennial lifestyle resurrected the LP, the effect of Millennials inheriting TT's and LP's, which, indulged as a curiosity, perpetuated an impression of better sound than the iPad/iPhone iTunes music experience. This impression has lead marketers to exploit opportunity, not Capitalists endeavoring to improve the LP experience. :) Regarding Capitalism today in the arena of recorded music the drive is a standardized, convenient, and inexpensive means/format for high quality multi-channel music. This is an endeavor however thwarted by record producers who have no interest in schemes which undermine their profit from production of stereo media. BTW, the leader in multi-channel technology development, albeit for Home Theater, is JBL Synthesis. They are now marketing multi-channel prepros expandable to 64 channels. Once they get a molding process to produce a 64 channel overhead compact speaker array this tech might be the next big thing in home entertainment.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 01 Nov 2019 18:48

Erin1 wrote:
01 Nov 2019 11:07
NOYB wrote:
31 Oct 2019 08:12
Issuesman666 wrote:
10 Oct 2019 23:31


A massive oversimplification indeed.

The question is ''Does it matter to the human ear or can we discern the differences by listening?''.
Nyquist-Shannon; The Backbone of Digital Sound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWjdWCePgvA
What exactly are you getting at?
.
.
.
Just sharing a video that explains why the "snapshots" someone referred to earlier is not an issue.

By the rest of your response it seem you may have misread my position on digital audio. I have nothing against digital audio and I'll take a practically noiseless CD over a vinyl most any day. Only reason I have a turntable is because I bought it back before CD's were available. Now it's purpose is just to digitize existing vinyl.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 02 Nov 2019 06:45

NOYB wrote:
01 Nov 2019 18:48

Just sharing a video that explains why the "snapshots" someone referred to earlier is not an issue.

By the rest of your response it seem you may have misread my position on digital audio. I have nothing against digital audio and I'll take a practically noiseless CD over a vinyl most any day. Only reason I have a turntable is because I bought it back before CD's were available. Now it's purpose is just to digitize existing vinyl.
OK. I understand.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Issuesman666 » 02 Nov 2019 11:13

I have never done digital downloads or stream music but I think paid subscriptions to an HD service like Amazon or Tidal is the way forward to me. It is just too expensive to buy and ship CD's to my country.

A good Desktop DAC will complement my system.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 02 Nov 2019 13:40

Issuesman666 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 11:13
I have never done digital downloads or stream music but I think paid subscriptions to an HD service like Amazon or Tidal is the way forward to me. It is just too expensive to buy and ship CD's to my country.

A good Desktop DAC will complement my system.
Here's what I know: I have 24/192 downloads from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds in my iTunes Library. I've attempted to compare and contrast these downloads to Apple Music streams and downloads. So far, with all playback via my OPPO-205's DAC, I am not at all certain I can hear any divergence between the Apple Music AAC 256k downloads and the high res downloads of same music performance from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds. This finding has caused me to: 1. not have any interest at all in subscriptions to streamers delivering hi-res, or 2. have any further interest in buying high price hi-res downloads. In other words Apple Music satisfies, for streaming, as well as downloading as much stereo music as I can place on my drive at just $9.99 monthly. At any rate, iTunes is very comprehensive having library, downloading, streamer (Apple Music), CD ripping, CD burning, and iTunes Store music purchase functions As mentioned the Apple Music subscription is just $9.99 monthly for unlimited streaming and downloading. There's a free 90 day trial, which only requires you download iTunes onto your PC. This is a free download, so you cannot make a mistake here. One more thing, when you've got iTunes on your computer, you can also use Apple TV or Airport Express for wireless connection to your stereo amplification, which makes a DAC unnecessary. And, the iTunes Library can be accessed with an iPhone or iPod. Those devices can also be used as remote controls for your wireless or wired connection of iTunes to amplifier. Hope this helps you. Try it out, there's nothing to lose.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 02 Nov 2019 16:55

Issuesman666 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 11:13
It is just too expensive to buy and ship CD's to my country.
Shipping from abroad can be expensive so the first solution is to make a list of CD`s or LP`s which you want and then try to order more of them at once from one seller. The second solution is to be satisfied with CD`s which you can find at your local stores even if it is not the best reissue. :smoking:

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 02 Nov 2019 18:37

Sterling1 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 13:40
Issuesman666 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 11:13
I have never done digital downloads or stream music but I think paid subscriptions to an HD service like Amazon or Tidal is the way forward to me. It is just too expensive to buy and ship CD's to my country.

A good Desktop DAC will complement my system.
Here's what I know: I have 24/192 downloads from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds in my iTunes Library. I've attempted to compare and contrast these downloads to Apple Music streams and downloads. So far, with all playback via my OPPO-205's DAC, I am not at all certain I can hear any divergence between the Apple Music AAC 256k downloads and the high res downloads of same music performance from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds. This finding has caused me to: 1. not have any interest at all in subscriptions to streamers delivering hi-res, or 2. have any further interest in buying high price hi-res downloads. In other words Apple Music satisfies, for streaming, as well as downloading as much stereo music as I can place on my drive at just $9.99 monthly. At any rate, iTunes is very comprehensive having library, downloading, streamer (Apple Music), CD ripping, CD burning, and iTunes Store music purchase functions As mentioned the Apple Music subscription is just $9.99 monthly for unlimited streaming and downloading. There's a free 90 day trial, which only requires you download iTunes onto your PC. This is a free download, so you cannot make a mistake here. One more thing, when you've got iTunes on your computer, you can also use Apple TV or Airport Express for wireless connection to your stereo amplification, which makes a DAC unnecessary. And, the iTunes Library can be accessed with an iPhone or iPod. Those devices can also be used as remote controls for your wireless or wired connection of iTunes to amplifier. Hope this helps you. Try it out, there's nothing to lose.
Another problem with hi res downloads and streams is being able to tell if it is just an up sampled low res. Could be paying a premium for what is really just 44.1/16 (CD quality).

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 02 Nov 2019 23:30

NOYB wrote:
02 Nov 2019 18:37
Sterling1 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 13:40
Issuesman666 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 11:13
I have never done digital downloads or stream music but I think paid subscriptions to an HD service like Amazon or Tidal is the way forward to me. It is just too expensive to buy and ship CD's to my country.

A good Desktop DAC will complement my system.
Here's what I know: I have 24/192 downloads from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds in my iTunes Library. I've attempted to compare and contrast these downloads to Apple Music streams and downloads. So far, with all playback via my OPPO-205's DAC, I am not at all certain I can hear any divergence between the Apple Music AAC 256k downloads and the high res downloads of same music performance from HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds. This finding has caused me to: 1. not have any interest at all in subscriptions to streamers delivering hi-res, or 2. have any further interest in buying high price hi-res downloads. In other words Apple Music satisfies, for streaming, as well as downloading as much stereo music as I can place on my drive at just $9.99 monthly. At any rate, iTunes is very comprehensive having library, downloading, streamer (Apple Music), CD ripping, CD burning, and iTunes Store music purchase functions As mentioned the Apple Music subscription is just $9.99 monthly for unlimited streaming and downloading. There's a free 90 day trial, which only requires you download iTunes onto your PC. This is a free download, so you cannot make a mistake here. One more thing, when you've got iTunes on your computer, you can also use Apple TV or Airport Express for wireless connection to your stereo amplification, which makes a DAC unnecessary. And, the iTunes Library can be accessed with an iPhone or iPod. Those devices can also be used as remote controls for your wireless or wired connection of iTunes to amplifier. Hope this helps you. Try it out, there's nothing to lose.
Another problem with hi res downloads and streams is being able to tell if it is just an up sampled low res. Could be paying a premium for what is really just 44.1/16 (CD quality).
I suppose any download produced today from an analog tape master could be hi-res; but, downloads produced today from digital tape would be suspect, meaning any download of 80's and 90's material.

Vinylfreak86
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 03 Nov 2019 09:47

Sterling1 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 23:30
I suppose any download produced today from an analog tape master could be hi-res; but, downloads produced today from digital tape would be suspect, meaning any download of 80's and 90's material.
I doubt you can see any download produced from analog master tape. Even if you a buy a vinyl record or japanese release of CD, no analog tapes anymore. Only those audiophile releases of jazz or classic where you will pay 60$ for a CD (gold disc and SACD) and even more for a vinyl record. Record labels now storage majority of material on cartridges (digital computer tape, but still magnetic tape yes :) ) in digital format.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 03 Nov 2019 09:53

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
03 Nov 2019 09:47
Sterling1 wrote:
02 Nov 2019 23:30
I suppose any download produced today from an analog tape master could be hi-res; but, downloads produced today from digital tape would be suspect, meaning any download of 80's and 90's material.
I doubt you can see any download produced from analog master tape. Even if you a buy a vinyl record or japanese release of CD, no analog tapes anymore. Only those audiophile releases of jazz or classic where you will pay 60$ for a CD (gold disc and SACD) and even more for a vinyl record. Record labels now storage majority of material on cartridges (digital computer tape, but still magnetic tape yes :) ) in digital format.
There's plenty hi-res from analog master tape at Acoustic Sounds, late 50's thru 80's material.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 29 Nov 2019 11:14

It's all in the mastering.
This sounds terrible on Spotify.
And generally Spotify sounds great with the hifi subscription.

https://open.spotify.com/album/4BLsgbwU ... Q3h6nYVdGg


But the same in vinyl sounds like one of the best audiophile recordings ever.
https://www.discogs.com/Diahann-Carroll ... se/3062966


But, before anyone gets excited...
It is a digital recording using an early Soundstream digital recorder.

The CD/ Spotify should sound great. But no!

The difference is mastering.

I recorded the record. It sounds great.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Shadowman82 » 01 Dec 2019 23:03

It's true that CD when it was first released did correct much of the annoyances the general population had with Vinyl , however it created some new ones that Vinyl did not have . But in a nutshell yes digital if it is mastered well and of a sufficiently high enough resolution would be in fact the best but as was pointed out hi-res downloads are often suspect as one doesn't know the source and allot of music that is available on Vinyl is not available on hi-res downloads or SA-CD or anything of that nature , only on badly mastered CDs . :(

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