Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

compact disc, dacs, mp3 players and streaming audio
Shadowman82
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Shadowman82 » 20 Oct 2019 22:59

lol me prefering Vinyl has nothing to do with trying to feel superior . It's a fact that Vinyl is way more of a hassle than digital . I bother with all of those hassles because to me Vinyl sounds better than CD . If everything that is available on Vinyl was also available on SA-CD I wouldn't be bothering with Vinyl .

NOYB
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 21 Oct 2019 07:30

cafe latte wrote:
18 Apr 2019 00:15
Shadowman82 wrote:
17 Apr 2019 23:24
I say anything that can't match the resolution of the master is a step down . People forget sometimes that back in the day when the CD was made it's unlikely they could have made a digital format with a 24-bit/96khz resolution or doing so would have been too expensive to be commercially viable . But in this day and age there is no good reason to still stick with 16-bit/44.1khz and say it's perfectly fine .
All I am saying is a response to the question "Does a digital copy of a vinyl record sound the same?" Answer is no simply as the digital playback gear will and does have a sound of its own due to op amps transistors and different DA converters. Not saying digital cant sound amazing, just saying a digital copy is not identical to the vinyl playback.
Chris
One might also say that vinyl playback is not identical to digital copy. ;) Oh and since we are talking mostly if not specifically about vinyl lets not forget the pre amp and RIAA de-emphasis. So one might also say that the analog playback gear will and does have a sound of it's own due to the pre-amp and RIAA de-emphasis and it will never be identical to the RIAA pre-emphasis that was applied.

No two vinyls are identical either. Not even the playing of the same vinyl is identical to any previous playing.

But which one is better hinges on a myriad of factors. To name just a few factors: noise, channel separation, distortion, mobility, convenience, resolution, mastering.

For me the music is for listening to. Given a reasonable resolution and quality the more convenient the more it will be listened to. I listen to music far more when it is in a digital music library, home or mobile, and can be set to play indefinitely in any number of orders from chronologically by album, shuffle, artist, etc. Even skip tracks that maybe are duplicates on a compilations album and so forth.

Just like in the old days. Vinyl is for transferring to a more convenient format.

cafe latte
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by cafe latte » 21 Oct 2019 13:05

NOYB wrote:
21 Oct 2019 07:30
cafe latte wrote:
18 Apr 2019 00:15
Shadowman82 wrote:
17 Apr 2019 23:24
I say anything that can't match the resolution of the master is a step down . People forget sometimes that back in the day when the CD was made it's unlikely they could have made a digital format with a 24-bit/96khz resolution or doing so would have been too expensive to be commercially viable . But in this day and age there is no good reason to still stick with 16-bit/44.1khz and say it's perfectly fine .
All I am saying is a response to the question "Does a digital copy of a vinyl record sound the same?" Answer is no simply as the digital playback gear will and does have a sound of its own due to op amps transistors and different DA converters. Not saying digital cant sound amazing, just saying a digital copy is not identical to the vinyl playback.
Chris
One might also say that vinyl playback is not identical to digital copy. ;) Oh and since we are talking mostly if not specifically about vinyl lets not forget the pre amp and RIAA de-emphasis. So one might also say that the analog playback gear will and does have a sound of it's own due to the pre-amp and RIAA de-emphasis and it will never be identical to the RIAA pre-emphasis that was applied.

No two vinyls are identical either. Not even the playing of the same vinyl is identical to any previous playing.

But which one is better hinges on a myriad of factors. To name just a few factors: noise, channel separation, distortion, mobility, convenience, resolution, mastering.

For me the music is for listening to. Given a reasonable resolution and quality the more convenient the more it will be listened to. I listen to music far more when it is in a digital music library, home or mobile, and can be set to play indefinitely in any number of orders from chronologically by album, shuffle, artist, etc. Even skip tracks that maybe are duplicates on a compilations album and so forth.

Just like in the old days. Vinyl is for transferring to a more convenient format.
No not really, all amps pre amps and speakers have a sound, but not my point. People record vinyl to compare carts but once you record it you are listening to a CD or da converter not a record. Yes all changes ie each component but converting to digital is a big change now you are listening to digital source not turntable. Also if I record something from vinyl and you play it back you are not gearing it through my digital source or my analogue source so this method proves nothing of original cart or turntable which was my point.
Chris

Vinylfreak86
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 21 Oct 2019 19:24

Everything is complicated. Today you can buy a new vinyl made 100% out of digital source. Is this really analog music? On the other hand DAC chips have been improved much in the last 20 years, so even one chinese made standalone 24-bit DAC connected to an older CD player via toslink (considering that you are playing good release of a CD) can sound very analog.:) But the dynamic range of a vinyl is much higher. Maybe the whole process of playing vinyl is more friendly to human ears.

Issuesman666
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Issuesman666 » 21 Oct 2019 20:06

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
21 Oct 2019 19:24
Everything is complicated. Today you can buy a new vinyl made 100% out of digital source. Is this really analog music? On the other hand DAC chips have been improved much in the last 20 years, so even one chinese made standalone 24-bit DAC connected to an older CD player via toslink (considering that you are playing good release of a CD) can sound very analog.:) But the dynamic range of a vinyl is much higher. Maybe the whole process of playing vinyl is more friendly to human ears.
Dynamic range of vinyl is higher??

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?ti ... hs_(Vinyl)

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 21 Oct 2019 21:33

The dynamic range of 16 bit digital signals (CD) is 96dB. The absolute maximum possible from the best LP is ~70dB.

Vinylfreak86
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 21 Oct 2019 22:03

JoeE SP9 wrote:
21 Oct 2019 21:33
The dynamic range of 16 bit digital signals (CD) is 96dB. The absolute maximum possible from the best LP is ~70dB.
Technically correct. I don`t know how to say it in english, but with dynamic range I meant something else. The whole power of sound is much more agressive, because when I listen a vinyl in my room I can feel vibrations on a wooden table or on floor made of wooden boards. When I listen a CD, it is not so detectable. But only a player and a format are different, other things are the same.

Issuesman666
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Issuesman666 » 21 Oct 2019 22:09

Sigh.

Shadowman82
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Shadowman82 » 21 Oct 2019 22:32

Yeah I think the guy meant something else with dynamic range . But anyway you guys might want to read this

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18296

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by JoeE SP9 » 21 Oct 2019 22:37

Vinylfreak86 wrote:
21 Oct 2019 22:03
JoeE SP9 wrote:
21 Oct 2019 21:33
The dynamic range of 16 bit digital signals (CD) is 96dB. The absolute maximum possible from the best LP is ~70dB.
Technically correct. I don`t know how to say it in english, but with dynamic range I meant something else. The whole power of sound is much more agressive, because when I listen a vinyl in my room I can feel vibrations on a wooden table or on floor made of wooden boards. When I listen a CD, it is not so detectable. But only a player and a format are different, other things are the same.
IME LP's tend to sound more "there/here" than CD's. However, whatever makes them do this has almost nothing to do with dynamic range. In fact my rips of LP's almost always sound better than the commercial CD.

The "brick wall" levels of many CD's is responsible for most of the perceived poor sound (to us). This makes CD's sound nice and loud on Auratones and in moving vehicles.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Shadowman82 » 21 Oct 2019 23:41

Yeah poor mastering on CD is certainly a big part of it . But as the link I posted demonstrates there does seem to be evidence that some people can tell the difference between CD quality and higher than CD quality . I suspect those very same people would also find Vinyl to sound more pleasing .

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 22 Oct 2019 02:02

Shadowman82 wrote:
21 Oct 2019 23:41
Yeah poor mastering on CD is certainly a big part of it . But as the link I posted demonstrates there does seem to be evidence that some people can tell the difference between CD quality and higher than CD quality . I suspect those very same people would also find Vinyl to sound more pleasing .
I would suspect that the noise would outweigh the difference that they probably don't have the equipment or environment capable to reveal.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 22 Oct 2019 02:31

The masses just want to listen to the music. So inconvenient vinyl is out and convenient digital is in. So shall it forevermore be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ta4T9tIUM

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Tonybro » 22 Oct 2019 09:55

NOYB wrote:
22 Oct 2019 02:31
The masses just want to listen to the music. So inconvenient vinyl is out and convenient digital is in. So shall it forevermore be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ta4T9tIUM
I'm going to be facetious now and say, the masses, especially the young masses, just want to isolate themselves from their surroundings and will have any old noise going at it so they can facebook, snapchat, instagram to their hearts content.

Young people particularly have no comprehension of the potential quality of playback systems and sources - even digital. They'll just consume in whatever form/quality it is delivered. Variety in and of music is dying because of it. There is a link somewhere on here pointing to academic studies indicating as such due to the lack of originality in current music.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 22 Oct 2019 12:42

What I perceive about young people comes from the priorities my two adult Sons demonstrate. Neither has an interest in music or video beyond what can be enjoyed via iTunes to a Bluetooth portable speaker and a big screen Smart TV connected to a soundbar. I think their priorities, which place recorded music and movies at the bottom of their list, promotes a healthier lifestyle than mine where music and movies have become a hobby addiction to a never ending need for better reproduction equipment. This addiction separates the branch from The Vine whereby the branch becomes a stick which does not produce fruit. Better to stay connected to The Vine.

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