Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

compact disc, dacs, mp3 players and streaming audio
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Erin1
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 15 Oct 2019 06:39

Whitigir wrote:
24 Feb 2019 21:46

Math is math and it can never be enough to calculate the exact density and intensity of an analog sound....hence cold, sterile and no emotions....not to mention if the information was full of errors, then the digital sound would be full of errors....... Music and sound waves can not be quantized without forever deformation over the quantization and reconstruction. Also, our human math is not perfect, and there are more to the universe than we think
Don't you realise all the maths involved in designing a tape recorder, and magnetic tape? There is probably 100x more mathematic equations involved in designing just a tape head, than a DAC or ADC.

Maths cannot be the reason for your dislike of digital audio.

Just saying

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 15 Oct 2019 06:59

BirdsOf-Fire wrote:
15 Oct 2019 03:50
Of course I "hear" the snapshots. Everyone does. That's how digital music works. You only hear what is contained in the snapshots. That isn't the point. The point is that everyone DOESN'T hear the missing music between the snapshots. You don't, I don't, nobody does. That music is MISSING.

You obviously don't understand how digital sampling works. So I'll explain to you that a CD is sampled at 44100 times per second. This allows 22khz maximum high frequencies to be captured in a recording. Anything that is "between" these samples is a frequency above 22khz - which means you can't hear it! It's above what you can hear.

But if you are concerned about ultrasonic frequencies you can record at 48khz, 88.2khz, 96khz,192khz or 384khz.

Each of these sample rates will reproduce precisely half their sample rate in analogue frequencies.

Please don't forget that even the best tweeters only reproduce about 40khz.

So no point recording above 88.2khz ;-)

You're not entirely wrong. Audio above 22khz is missing on CDs, but can you hear it???

NOYB
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 16 Oct 2019 07:41

Sterling1 wrote:
13 Oct 2019 17:07
NOYB wrote:
09 Oct 2019 18:25
Sterling1 wrote:
09 Oct 2019 13:00
There is only one advantage. When the electricity goes out, you can play 78's on a wind-up record player. :lol:
My notebook has a battery that lasts all day.
My smartphone also has a long lasting battery.
Then there is also the motor vehicles.

Also the snapshot take is an over simplification.
My comment was regarding the only advantage of vinyl over digital.
Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.

NOYB
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 16 Oct 2019 07:49

Erin1 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 06:59
You're not entirely wrong. Audio above 22khz is missing on CDs, but can you hear it???
That missing audio though really irritates dogs, Superman and the Bionic Woman.

NOYB
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 16 Oct 2019 08:03

NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:49
Erin1 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 06:59
You're not entirely wrong. Audio above 22khz is missing on CDs, but can you hear it???
Of course not. It's missing. ;)
That missing audio though really irritates dogs, Superman and the Bionic Woman.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 16 Oct 2019 08:58

NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:41
Sterling1 wrote:
13 Oct 2019 17:07
NOYB wrote:
09 Oct 2019 18:25

My notebook has a battery that lasts all day.
My smartphone also has a long lasting battery.
Then there is also the motor vehicles.

Also the snapshot take is an over simplification.
My comment was regarding the only advantage of vinyl over digital.
Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.
The bottom-line is digital requires electricity. No power, no play. 78's can be played from human energy and heard from horn amplification.

Erin1
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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 16 Oct 2019 09:51

Sterling1 wrote:
16 Oct 2019 08:58
NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:41
Sterling1 wrote:
13 Oct 2019 17:07

My comment was regarding the only advantage of vinyl over digital.
Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.
The bottom-line is digital requires electricity. No power, no play. 78's can be played from human energy and heard from horn amplification.
That's scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons in favour of ancient vinyl artifacts.

Enjoy listening to "how much is that doggy in the window" and "the entertainer" ;-)

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Erin1 » 16 Oct 2019 09:54

NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:49
Erin1 wrote:
15 Oct 2019 06:59
You're not entirely wrong. Audio above 22khz is missing on CDs, but can you hear it???
That missing audio though really irritates dogs, Superman and the Bionic Woman.
My cat enjoys digital audio and gets irritated by ultrasonic noise on vinyl.

The Bionic woman only buys digital from HD tracks and records at 192khz :-)

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Vinylfreak86 » 16 Oct 2019 10:14

NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:41

Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.
Batteries are very harmful to the environment, so in the future we will have to ban the production. Exception are classic 20. century relict like AA batteries, which you can buy at every gas station. And where are then electric cars? Electric cars are just nonsense, something that doesn`t have any future.
Otherwise also if we compare modern electric turntable with digital players (CD, SACD, Network player, etc.), the second one need more complex technology and special raw materials, which will become more and more expensive in the future. So playing a 33 rpm vinyl record after 200 years from now will be possible, but will it be possible to play a CD? Maybe yes, maybe not. But most probably not.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by NOYB » 16 Oct 2019 20:23

Sterling1 wrote:
16 Oct 2019 08:58
NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:41
Sterling1 wrote:
13 Oct 2019 17:07

My comment was regarding the only advantage of vinyl over digital.
Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.
The bottom-line is digital requires electricity. No power, no play. 78's can be played from human energy and heard from horn amplification.
Ever hear of hand crank power source? Like for radios and what not.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 19 Oct 2019 13:25

NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 20:23
Sterling1 wrote:
16 Oct 2019 08:58
NOYB wrote:
16 Oct 2019 07:41

Which isn't really an advantage over digital since we have long lasting batteries readily available and other fuel means of re-charging them during longer periods of power outages.
The bottom-line is digital requires electricity. No power, no play. 78's can be played from human energy and heard from horn amplification.
Ever hear of hand crank power source? Like for radios and what not.
Ever think critically, instead of cavalierly? A man made disaster will preclude hand crank radios to reception of emergency management designated stations, which will be broadcasting survival recommendations from power delivered from diesel generators. There will be no regularly scheduled programing and when the generators run out of fuel, then what? You will likely be very hungry, and possibly very cold. Looters will have emptied food store stock. ATM's won't be working to get you cash for any selling things you need. Gas stations, will not have power to pump gas. You will have candle light at best and at some point when you realize the power is not coming back on, you'll be in the mood to eat your pets, and leave home to forage. Better have a gun and be prepared to use it to defend yourself from those you will be competing with for food. This is the reality of it, the product of a successful attack on the electric grid. For sure, then you'll be thinking that some of the money used to buy stereo equipment would have been better spent on MRE's. But, of course, if you do own a gramophone and some 78's you might get some comfort playing those 78's.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Pure_brew » 19 Oct 2019 16:06

mjz wrote:
07 Feb 2019 21:54
I made the switch to digital high resolution years ago convinced it is better than analog in terms of dynamic range, low noise and overall sound - and I can play over and over and never hear a click or pop not to mention - on demand (no getting up to change the record).

But then my brother-in-law gave me an LP (45 rpm remastered 180 gram album) for Christmas. I told him he's nuts, I don't listen to LP's anymore even though I have my college collection still neatly displayed (part of the decor in my home office!) next to the Britannica - also a museum piece. He laughed.

After all of the holiday merry making and I was alone with my dogs again without any family around, I dug out my old vintage Technics SL-D2 turntable (w/ Shure V15 type III) out of curiosity. I also dug out an old phono pre-amp TC-750 I had in a drawer so I could digitize a few old albums years ago through my computer. I connected the pre-amp to my high end Krell based stereo which has never seen a turntable connected to it. I then put the needle to the LP and sat back.

Wow ... I was stunned. The warmth, wide sound stage imaging and "presence" was simply amazing. I could also could hear the preamp - so I decided to get a new PHO-8 preamp and then I fell out of my chair when I played the album again.

Anyone know why digital can't be 'made' to sound like vinyl? It seems it would be so easy, but analog just sounds more real to me. I went to my old LP's and started playing them again. Each one - especially the ones I digitized and filtered out the clicks and pops (and sound excellent) just sound better. True - the dynamic range isn't there, but it's close enough for the music to reach your soul.

I don't understand why digital isn't as warm sounding. I'm just amazed that I have to buy LP's again.
Just a theory. I would say that what people attribute to "warmth" in general concerning record playback has more to do with the instability of the medium during playback, than that it is actually true to source.

While people state that digitization in various degrees is audible, I believe that constant changes in amplitude and phase are also audible, as it relates to a record being played on a turntable.

Here is what I am referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... FxiLeQmb5k

(Unfortunately, he should have turned down the source volume as it makes the video a bit annoying to listen to.)

I have preformed this test before at home. I don't have anything special regarding system components, and my test looked pretty similar as I recall, but I do really enjoy the sound regardless.

Perhaps it has a little to do with the comb-filtering effects that reach your ears during music playback, potentially getting smoothed over during vinyl playback.

Also, there is the cartridge of course, which all sound different, and Shure tends to be a bit more laid back imho.
The differences in CD players is quite trivial for example, compared to the differences in cartridges.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 20 Oct 2019 11:26

This is a strange thread for sure. If you enjoy records or analog tape recordings it matters not what is perceived about the sound character of other recorded music media.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Issuesman666 » 20 Oct 2019 14:08

Sterling1 wrote:
20 Oct 2019 11:26
This is a strange thread for sure. If you enjoy records or analog tape recordings it matters not what is perceived about the sound character of other recorded music media.
Yes it is a strange thread.Some vinyl fans seem to want to justify all the hassles of vinyl playback by claiming superior sound quality. Not many people listen to vinyl and some who do want to feel that the almost exclusivity of vinyl makes it and by extension themselves superior.

Vinyl is more engaging and tactile but high quality digital(I consider CD and up to be High quality) is not something to be put down or regarded as inferior.

Some of the analogies used in describing Digital music astound me in this thread.

I listen to music in High Fidelity not formats.

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Re: Why can't digital sound as 'warm' as analog?

Post by Sterling1 » 20 Oct 2019 14:11

Issuesman666 wrote:
20 Oct 2019 14:08
Sterling1 wrote:
20 Oct 2019 11:26
This is a strange thread for sure. If you enjoy records or analog tape recordings it matters not what is perceived about the sound character of other recorded music media.


I listen to music in High Fidelity not formats.
I like that, I like it a lot.

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