The New Vpi Classic

[Alec124c41]

Just pour me half a glass of single-malt!

Cheers,
Alec

[J.D.]

Chairguy :
Not angry at all. My statement that HW's posts at VA are bristly and brief consists of having seen, in real time over the last nine years or so, all of the dude's posts at VA. And, it's an accurate characterization.

You seem to want to emphasize only the one HW post, when you read (and quote again) the following :

Guys, relax, I don't do any marketing, I have no interest in it.

Tell me it's not an plug; tell me it's not sincerity that comes from the wallet. Wait, tell anybody who'll believe it, but not me.

This (current) thread has had thick, hype-y stardust sprinkled all over it, in the seven pages thus far, and I think it's worth pointing out that there are financial concerns being catered to here without question. "I don't do any marketing" ? HW may be the Stradivarius of the Marketing Solution, but his "vintage-y" designs aren't a unanimous hit, and perhaps the more you know about vintage designs the more you know about this.

This is an audio-enthusiast website, so no one should be surprised to see enthusiastic receptions for products. But there's always going to be someone who questions them, and that's all that's happening here. So you need not ascribe 'anger' as the motive, when it's not the case.

.

[Ren]

Oh, and just curious if anyone else remembers a lower-left motor placement from a high end table in the nineties -- possibly a pink triangle or roksan ? Can't quite recall.......

Probably Pink Triangle. The Funk Firm offers a Linn LP12 modification called the Pink Link which includes a new top plate with the motor moved to the 7:00 position: http://www.thefunkfirm.co.uk/PL2.htm

Part of their explanation for that move is: " The Pink Link2 minimises the impact of motor pull on the cartridge by moving the motor from the 11 o’clock position on the top plate to the 7 o’clock position. Now the drive-belt path is placed in line with the cantilever of the cartridge. It is here that the impact of motor pull is minimised because the cartridge cantilever is least susceptible to vibration in its front-to-back plane of movement. "

I haven't heard that LP12 modification, so I cannot comment. The explanation sounds plausible to me.

I was considering some upgrades for my old LP12, but decided to buy the VPI CLassic instead.

[Blue Angel]

Yeah,

That's the 64K $ question.

@

So the jury is still out on idler vs beltdrive for you? Absolutely no baiting intended

Here, at ol' blue's lair, we are heading headlong into DD territory to find out what it's all about. I'm used to 301s' arm-out-of-socket torque and was shocked the other night to discover the MR-711 ain't no Charles Atlas...

I haven't played it yet, though.

blue angel

[J.D.]

Chairguy,

Think we've both made our points, your responses I haven't found convincing, and I see I'm not convincing you either, so no need to be revisting them, we've laid out our cases.

On another aspect here, namely :

It's as speed stable as the direct drive decks I have owned the past 4 years....the only decks that have thus far allowed me to enjoy vinyl to the utmost. This belt drive table sounds as speed stable as them.

Hope your non-sds table continues to astound and amaze as it does now with right-out-of-the-shop tolerances, fit, and compliant elements, for years to come. I think you hit on exactly the soft spot of the vpi line that I've heard over the years... Speed Stability. Mr W's two new vintage-y efforts are aimed directly at that soft area, and maybe your table is immune, though I doubt it.

Once the motor & spindle bearings are run in, and the various compliant parts either soften and/or dry out a little, even with belt-changes it's my contention that it will begin to sound like any beltdrive, and you'll be wondering about that add-on of a thousand-dollar Sds. And wondering whether comparison to direct-drive was premature. Because the tightly constructed recipe of little-motors driving rubber-bands driving heavy-steel on big bearings--- gets slacker and slacker with time.

Hope for you it doesn't work out that way, but in my experience, and I had an Aries for years, and heard many others, that's the flow-chart. Doesn't make it a bad turntable by any, ahem, 'stretch'.
Just makes it a Belt Drive Turntable from Vpi.

[J.D.]

Ren ::

The Pink Link2 minimises the impact of motor pull on the cartridge by moving the motor from the 11 o’clock position on the top plate to the 7 o’clock position. Now the drive-belt path is placed in line with the cantilever of the cartridge. It is here that the impact of motor pull is minimised because the cartridge cantilever is least susceptible to vibration in its front-to-back plane of movement.

Exactly what I was trying to recall. And exactly the quote.
Thanks.

[Blue Angel]

Hi

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The fact that I run 301's doesn't make me blind to the fact that there are other ways to skin a cat. To be more precise, there are two 301's and a Micro Seiki BL-51 in the constant playing loop. Soon, these decks will be joined by the Micro MR-711 and of the latter turntable, I know absolutely nothing as I've never before owned a DD.

In the past, I only had belt-drive equipment. Some were OK, others often needing speed adjustment during play. Next to each turntable I keep a strobe disc so I'm aware what happens during play. Most of the beltdrives 'hunted' or drifted off speed but I'm referring to observations I made 20+ years ago about a mixed bag of turntables I owned.

The best of the lot - the Micro Seiki BL-51 - has minimal of the off speed or drifting thing and that's why I keep it in the loop. Technically, I can't remember the type or size of motor but I know it sits at top left and remember it looked of the hefty kind.

@ TCG

I read the thread from when it started. I remember your comparisons between the Classic and the JVC which I could figure was like a 'quantum leap' between the two. I also looked at the pics and all I can say, I think you got terrific value for the money - especially if I recall the images and prices one reads about in the mags of what is currently available.

It was your money, afterall. And it is your ears and eyes you are pleasuring. I can't speculate on what it's like as a daily driver as I obviously haven't heard it.

There is very little time for prolonged listening for pleasure here. For me at least, my Garrards and my BL-51 does the job and that makes me happy. All three were acquired pre-owned. The first one sat in a box on the bloke's drive and he wouldn't even take money for it. The BL-51 cost peanuts and the cream Garrard grease bearing cost 1 peanut.

All three needed extensive work. Awww, I guess when I look at them now, I think my preference as to which are best, are determined by the number of hours/days or weeks I spent tittivatin' them. It so happens that the creamy ones fit the bill.

blue angel

[J.D.]

chairguy:

the knee-in-the-groin you are so eager to deliver

Obviously you don't get the idea that you don't need to go there.
It's an attempt to take the discussion down to schoolyard level, it's demonstrably not the case, and the fact is I've been discussing on the merits all along here.

Your flourishes of verbal straw-manism--- I'm 'angry', I'm eager to deliver a 'knee in the groin', I dwell in the 'dungeon' of my thoughts, I'm 'maligning' someone personally ---

Sorry. Not proven, and further, not called for.
When you have to exaggerate like that, fabricate to try and force a point, you may as well give up, there and then.
You can get on with your info-mercial now.

[J.D.]

Chairguy, glad you could clarify just where it is that you're coming from.
Nicely put, and diplomatic too.
Stick with it, nice promo, Harry will send you a free belt or something.

[blisteringbarnacles]

'acid rain and camel spit'... is that a tom waits album?

[davidsss]

I'm with Blue on the BL51 (sounds bloody fantastic with one of his Mantis Carts), I find the speed stability to be fine (bear in mind this is about 27 years old). I know Micro Seiki built their TTs like tanks (or maybe aeroplanes) but I have a strobe disc and a light and whenever I check the speed it is spot on (it is adjustable). I think the DC motor has a lot to do with it too as I think the MR611 I used for many years was a tiny bit fast, it is a belt drive with an AC motor. No idea about the MR711 though, looks like quite a different beast, last of the MR series I think and may be more related to Micro Seiki's DD series decks.

I see no reason why belt drives can't be speed stable. Sounds like has found a stable one in the classic, and I think that is saying something, as he has, in the past, shown he is sensitive to speed stability issues. Sounds like a good find Mr Chair, hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

DS

[AudioSoul]

HEY! Guess what every body? The is no perfect TT! I have owned a lot of TT's im my day. DD, Belt Drive and Idler. They all have there strengths a weaknesses...........

[J.D.]

As a final thought here, maybe I could clarify my own experience & position.
I bought an Aries when they first came out, about fifteen years ago or thereabout. A low serial number like 000100 or so. In the early days I was convinced of the great sound, and it was--- once you got the platform sorted out and finetuned the specifics, there was a wide-open tone and a great big sonic picture emerging out of the really pitch-black quiet background.

As persuasive and profound as those sonic events could be, there was something not-quite-right with the music. Endless belt, revised-vpi-motor, shelf, motor-separated-split-shelf, slate-shelf, isolation, footer, rack-then-wallshelf substitutions came nearer the mark. Vpi announced that it was an 'upgrade' to remove the compliant rubber bushings from the footer compartments, -- and, it was. A verifiable slurring was removed from the timing aspects of the table by changing to no-compliance bolts of stainless steel. But it wasn't there in the way that this kind of Graham/Benz/highend table was supposed to be there.

During this time secondary tables came and went, direct-drive technics and luxmans, and a belted rega as well. Eventually, luckily, I got involved with legendary Garrard 3o1s and concluded that the fault wasn't entirely the Aries but the Drivebelt, generic. Everything I had done with the Aries had increased the uncanny Tnt-family ability to unearth ripe vivid sonic flourishes from the vinyl groove, but hadn't really done much to keep them in Time. Return to stock, worse Time. Different combinations of treatments, Time still lacking. The overiding devilry here was that the big and vivid aspects of the sound were so strong that each shift in treatment, each new fantastic Lp reissue or find--- tempted you to disregard Time, for as long as you were being seduced. And eventually each new seduction ended in a recognition that speed stability and timing were more important, dealbreakers, really, for adequate Lp replay.

That's what leads me to counsel an owner at the start of a Vpi Beltdrive Adventure as I did ::

Once the motor & spindle bearings are run in, and the various compliant parts either soften and/or dry out a little, even with belt-changes it's my contention that it will begin to sound like any beltdrive, and you'll be wondering about that add-on of a thousand-dollar Sds. And wondering whether comparison to direct-drive was premature. Because the tightly constructed recipe of little-motors driving rubber-bands driving heavy-steel on big bearings--- gets slacker and slacker with time.

And by that I mean years. The sound of the table right out of the shop will still be tight and seductive; it takes Time to acclimate to the sound, Time to let the machine run in and settle, Time to begin to hear whether speed stability will hold out or wobble away as it tends to do.
One opinion.

[blisteringbarnacles]

what about the cost in replacement trousers?