Pecking Order

TNTTNT · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: Pecking Order

Some time ago I participated in a thread listing components by significance of affect on sound reproduction. I don't want to get into the whys and wherefores of the debate again, but to illustrate, my answer (from most important to least) was: -

- Loudspeakers
- Amp
- CD
- Cables

My reasoning was that while there are difference in electronics, by the law of diminishing returns, it costs a lot of money to generate big differences in amps and CD.

Loudspeakers were to me the most sensitive to differences in construction and budget.

In terms of cables, I find it hard to go there without swearing ****. As long as you have a well shielded low capacitance piece of wire, with good connections, I think you would be happy.

Like I said, I don't want to revisit this debate, but have mentioned for illustration.

If you had to list components of a turntable which had the most influence on sound, which would it be? I am much much less experienced with decks, so asking this would help me tune my skills and budget to the right place. If you assumed your starting point was decent and respectable in each area, which change would probably give the biggest benefit.

I know this is an open question, and I don't expect a definitive final answer, but sometime you can learn more from the journey than the final destination.

The list is: -

- Motor
- Main Bearing
- Plinth
- PSU
- Arm
- Catridge

I have left out drive mechanism on purposer, as I feel this is akin to asking the meaning of life.

analogaudio · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:19 am Post subject:

Transducer always comes first, having the greatest impact on the sound quality, this is where the frequency response the noise and distortion are defined by the physical limitations of things that have to move to work, the same pricipals apply to three types of electromechanical transducers, microphones, vinyl mastering lathes, vinyl carts, and loudspeakers, all have moving parts whose frequency response errors, noise and distortion far exceed that of any competently designed preamp or power amp.

Ted

TNTTNT · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:36 am Post subject:

Hi Ted,

I can understand and agree with your point (from emperical observation, rather than electrical theory) that things than move have the biggest barriers to cross.

The trouble is (and why I am keenly intersted) in turntables, all parts are mechanically moving to some extent - The motor, the bearing, the arm, the catridge and plinth. This is why I am clueless on the biggest area of change.

flavio81 · contributor Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Posts: 2280 Location: Lima

TNTTNT · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject:

Hi Flavio,

Great reply and lots to consider. I have been trying to disect your answer into those which are added, modded or designed into to the deck and those things which are done to the deck.

I am gratefully you expanded the question, because sitting in my presidential palace, I forgot that a badly set up deck will sound bad.

I am not sure which is the best compromise between speed stabilty, tracking and frequency response. Slightly guessing, I think your order from your post might be: -

For those added, modded or designed into deck

- Cartridge (Including stylus design and compliance choice)
- Arm (Not sure if this is in the right place)
- motor (Including PSU)
- Platter Bearing
- Platter Design and Mass
- Suspension
- Tonearm Cable
- System Mass

For maintenance and those things done to deck

- Get VTF right
- Cartridge Alignment
- New Belt
- Good Support

The reason I ask because I am trying to workout the biggest things which affect sound, so I can maximse the rule of diminishing returns. It was interesting you focused a lot on cartridge, and given it's primary role it sounds logical. I get the impression I hear lots about swapping arms, but think there is less talk on cartridges.

Also the above affects choice of target decks. Linns have great bearing tolerances, Heybrooks and Ariston focus on suspension and plinth. Technics have very damped plinths (I believe).

aardvarkash10 · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject:

God not this old chestnut again..

The MOST audio-significant piece of your system is what ever is limiting its current performance the most. This is true of a turntable, steam engine, Atlas booster rocket, the workgroup you are in at your current job, a computer, or your car.

Most frequently, imho, the significant limitation on the performance of the system is the operator. This holds true in almost every environment I can think of, and I consider it holds true here...
_________________
"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do, life's been good to me so far..." Joe Walsh, 1976-ish

TNTTNT · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:12 am Post subject:

WmAx · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:29 am Post subject:

aardvarkash10 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:32 am Post subject:

satanfriendly · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:46 am Post subject:

To a great extent I have to agree there WmAx that room acoustics can have a huge difference on the final sound. Play either of my two systems in an alternative room and you would well believe it was a different set up.

However:

aardvarkash10 · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:47 am Post subject:

lol!!!p**n is a deletable word???? What happens if I write p0rn?
_________________
"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do, life's been good to me so far..." Joe Walsh, 1976-ish

bastlnut · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:59 am Post subject:

hallo,

there is no bang for the buck. that is a myth!
everything depends in everything. like it was said above by aardvarkash10, the weakest link.....the bottleneck.
the trick is determining which it is......the limiting factor.
only your ears can tell, nothing written or what worked for someone else.
the best money spent is on the limiting factor.

regards,
bastlnut
_________________
little things matter, but make my jaw drop. PLEASE!!!!

starterwiz · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:03 am Post subject:

TNTTNT · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:44 am Post subject:

Thanks guys, and sorry if I have caused frustration. I think there is a common thread of answers, which I think is a bit misaligned with the question, but the fact there are so many similar points must mean I don't get the answers, rather than the question has been misunderstood. Weight of common responses must mean I am missing the point, and need to go away and think about it.

The analogy I was trying to make was if someone had a system if a £300 amp, £300 CD player and £300 speakers and asked me which upgrade would give the biggest difference, I would say the speakers. This isn't a hard rule, and assumes the other bits are reasonable made. For me it is a good rule of thumb, to start the tinkering process.

I was hoping someone could give similar guidance on going from midrange deck, midrange arm and midrange cartridge - A Systemdek IIx, a Rega RB250 arm and an Ortofon 2M Red might be an example (Ignoring any compliance matching issues temporarily.)

I think I am causing a bit of pain, so may be better not to keep asking and do it the long way by trial and error.

WmAx · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject:

My goodness, if rational demonstration has any input here, there is no question that the speaker is by far (and the room too, of course) the biggest thing holding back sound quality. A competent digital source and amplifier can be had for just a few hundred dollars; it's trivial to recover and amplify the signal with no audible distortions..... but a competent commercially available speaker for my standards, costs well in excess of $10k.

-Chris