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TNTTNT
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| scho2684 wrote: |
That would be a bit difficult I think, because you really have to "connect" the plinth to the aluminium, I don't think dropping the complete top part of the table into a wooden base would not work sonicly. Wooden base for the complete deck (including the rubber bottom) I've seen before, just can't recall where...
Marco |
I think there may be lots of options. The trick is how to set this into wood
I think you get some sort of solid ply sandwich stuff (like the guy I showed pics of SP9.5) and shape the top so this drop on top. This would be very hard to do, and you would need to cut channels for the slider and button wiring.
The other option is to build a hollow plinth, Line it with bitumen, stuff it with loft insulation wool and drop the metal plate into a cut out on the top.
I am no electrical genius, but I have a friend who is a customer bespoke furniture maker. I am hoping to call a favour.
I am also damping expert, so not sure if arm damping is needed. Then again, at this I would have the same design issues if I was plinthing a SP10. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Turning a Duckling into a Swan |
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| caligari wrote: | | TNTTNT wrote: | | isn't a SP10 the DD motor, bearing and platter from a 1200, or similar? So could you take a 1200 and step backward to get a SP10 sounding deck? |
The motor in the SL-1200mk2 is NOT the same as the one in SP-10mk2. Not even close. Such project is a good idea, provided you have the time and energy. However, it would be much less belabored if you simply use an SP-25 because it uses the same motor and electronics but the platter is heavier, so the math suggests a better machine.
Another candidate would be the SL-1600/1700/1800mk2 series, same motor/electronics/platter except these are suspended designs but they are generally cheaper than SL-1200mk2. The SL-1800mk2 is a manual table so works exactly like the SL-1200mk2 which makes a good choice for butchering.
If people are willing to stay away from the SL-1200mk2 and want to go a range higher than that, then you can use the SL-1300/1400/1500mk2 series. All three are same turntable except each has different auto functions -the SL-1500mk2 is a manual model which, again, makes is a good choice. What I like about this series is that the motor and electronics are similar to the SP-15 and the platter is dynamically balanced with drilled holes like the SP-10. If you can find an SL-150mk2, it's even better. It's a manual table with no tonearm and the bottom is made of wood and has no suspension except the four feet. It's almost like an SL-1200mk2 modified for you. The weakness of these SL1300/1400/1500mk2 tables is that they have a mediocre tonearm which makes them even better for upgrade in such gutting project. Another good thing about them is the motor is detachable from the circuit board; it's independent from the electronics so one can mount the motor directly to a solid plinth without worrying about situating the electronics and can extend the cables as umbilical cords to the stock chassis.
I have an SP-15 and SP-25 that I can swap around on the same wood plinth and it sounds wonderful. The wood or organic material definitely warms up or humanize the sound a lot from that Technics clinical house sound. I think Technics over-use composite material in the decks. In this set up the SP-15 sounds to my ears more musical than the SP-10 in stock obsidian plinths. The SP-10 still reign supreme in the bass department due to its tremendous torque. But my own personal preference is to have a lusher midrange and more refined top end. Of course one can modify the SP10 in the same manner and probably improve it even further.
The point is that there are many Technics options out there besides the ubiquitous SL-1200mk2. Find one at a good price and experiment!
Have fun! |
Great info and thanks very much. The decks you mention should much more sensible, especially so if the motors can be separated. In some ways the project becomes less romantic by not using the 1200, which is like the deck of the people. However, my end game is to get a great sounding deck first and not to politicise the 1200, so your ideas are very welcome and relevant. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Turning a Duckling into a Swan |
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| caligari wrote: | | TNTTNT wrote: | | isn't a SP10 the DD motor, bearing and platter from a 1200, or similar? So could you take a 1200 and step backward to get a SP10 sounding deck? |
If people are willing to stay away from the SL-1200mk2 and want to go a range higher than that, then you can use the SL-1300/1400/1500mk2 series. All three are same turntable except each has different auto functions -the SL-1500mk2 is a manual model which, again, makes is a good choice. |
I forgot to ask, if I use a semi or fully auto deck for this, would I have to so any electrical work to remove the arm permanently? I would fill the empty hole with wood. I am guessing there must be electical wiring to stop the motor at the end of record trigger point. |
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bastlnut
contributor
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 3723
Location: Bern, Switzerland, World
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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hallo,
this has nothing to do with a Swan or a Duck......
this is another 'building a better Mousetrap' spiel.....
i can think of a better way to occupy my time.
regards,
bastlnut
_________________
little things matter, but make my jaw drop. PLEASE!!!! |
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JaS
engine room
Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 6934
Location: Dark Peak
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Turning a Duckling into a Swan |
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| TNTTNT wrote: | | I forgot to ask, if I use a semi or fully auto deck for this, would I have to so any electrical work to remove the arm permanently? I would fill the empty hole with wood. I am guessing there must be electical wiring to stop the motor at the end of record trigger point. |
Hi,
There are various manuals/brochures in the library to help here. The part you'll need to rewire is the disc end detector circuit / position detecting coil. Of course if you plan to use the standard arm I don't see a downside to keeping this active?
Regards,
JaS |
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caligari
member
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 45
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Turning a Duckling into a Swan |
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| TNTTNT wrote: | | I forgot to ask, if I use a semi or fully auto deck for this, would I have to so any electrical work to remove the arm permanently? I would fill the empty hole with wood. I am guessing there must be electical wiring to stop the motor at the end of record trigger point. |
The arm auto mechanism is right below the armboard area and has wires route to a small pcb via a connector. If you disconnect that the table becomes a manual one. I forgot all the little details but try disconnect that first and then experiment. Once you get it to operate manually, don't over do the soldering because you might mess up the circuit. The easier way is to disconnect and connect again. I would wait for an SL-1500mk2 to show up so you can do a lot less work, if you can find one of course. Other than the SL-150mk2, the SL-1500mk2 is almost identical but comes with its own arm.
Download all the manuals from VE and do a comparison.
Good luck. |
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caligari
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Location: Chicago
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1200y3
vinyl addict
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 1997
Location: regina,sk
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: Would it be an SP 10. |
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The SP10 Mk II has a solid cast base (bottom) which is only about 4 inches deep. It is very shallow but very heavy. I don't know what it looks like inside but the top boss (aluminum surface) is a plate about 1 inch thick. It has a mounting flange on the base side of the top plate. Its power supply is external. It will surprise you when you pick it up because it has the profile of a corn flakes box but weighs about 20 pounds. It is very thin. It is likely packed tightly inside. Then it was commonly installed in a steel base (plinth) on which the arm and power supply was installed and weiged about 40 pounds in total.
I imagine an SL 12 improvement could be to install it into the motor plate of an RCA TR 70C VTR which was 1 inch thick aluminum plate. (google) |
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caligari
member
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 45
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Would it be an SP 10. |
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| 1200y3 wrote: | | I don't know what it looks like inside but the top boss (aluminum surface) is a plate about 1 inch thick. |
The chassis of the SP10 is cast aluminum. Much of the weight comes primarily from the motor and platter. However, the area where the motor is mounted is just a piece of aluminum with a hole cut out that's only about 1/8" thick. So I think these fancy plinth can only go so far in terms of performance improvement because no matter how heavy and solid and damped it is, it is still mounted to a a thin piece of aluminum. I prefer the Kaneta style by taking the motor out and mount it directly to a solid wood plinth. One can take the same concept to a slate plinth, I suppose, and then route the motor wires back to the stock chassis as the control center.
Just an idea. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be an SP 10. |
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| caligari wrote: | | 1200y3 wrote: | | I don't know what it looks like inside but the top boss (aluminum surface) is a plate about 1 inch thick. |
The chassis of the SP10 is cast aluminum. Much of the weight comes primarily from the motor and platter. However, the area where the motor is mounted is just a piece of aluminum with a hole cut out that's only about 1/8" thick. So I think these fancy plinth can only go so far in terms of performance improvement because no matter how heavy and solid and damped it is, it is still mounted to a a thin piece of aluminum. I prefer the Kaneta style by taking the motor out and mount it directly to a solid wood plinth. One can take the same concept to a slate plinth, I suppose, and then route the motor wires back to the stock chassis as the control center.
Just an idea. |
Each time I log in I learn something. You mentioned Kaneta and I found this.
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10plinth.html
I looked at isolation platforms yesterday, to try to understand isolation and damping. One thought I had was to build two boxes and glue together. The first being full of sand for mass and damping. The second box mutliple layers of ply and some damping material, to sink the rubberless deck into. Do know what might be a good material to sandwich between layers of ply for damping, and can be vineered over?
I spoke to my furniture maker friend, and he said he would help, but not sure if he understands the full extent of my idea. |
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caligari
member
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Posts: 45
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Would it be an SP 10. |
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They don't show any picture of what a true Kaneta style plinth looks like. Here's one Kaneta mod of a SP-10mk2
http://homepage2.nifty.com/~mh.....10mk2.html
And here's one mod on the original SP-10.
http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~kad.....10mk1.html
Obviously, Kaneta goes further than just mounting the motor directly to a solid wood plinth but he also completely rebuilds the drive electronics and power supply via discreet components. Major modification here! Not for the technically less skillful for sure. But one can copy the plinth approach liberally. Too bad I do not have the wood working tools to do such project at this point. I sure would love to hear a mod like that! |
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TNTTNT
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Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: |
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I have done a bit more digging and Satanfriendly is right. If you are going to replinth a 1200, you had better do what the guy did in the pics I posted - strip everything out and reseat the insides into a wooden base.
From some people's experimentation it kind of agrees with Bastlnut's views of the limitations of the 1200 in stock form.
Between the rubber base and top plate there is a fibre glass cast mould. The joins between this mould and the top aluminium face may be very poor, with gaps and wobbles. To summarise, the deck is very well damped from outside vibration (due to rubber base), but not great at damping vibration from the arm.
I am convinced if you strip a 1200 and reseat in a wooden ply base, you will get a big improvement. Like many scientitfic proposers, I may spend a lifetime pursing to prove this theory, to find out I was wrong and jump off a high bridge.......later for the world to discover I was right and name a constant after me. |
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1200y3
vinyl addict
Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Posts: 1997
Location: regina,sk
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:25 am Post subject: SL 1200 Rebuild |
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Hopefully there will be enough ventilation and cooling for the electronics circuit board. There is a heat sink on the circuit board. It is possible to bolt transistors elsewhere to sink the heat, like the case or an aluminum strip under the base (if it gets too hot).
Potting the PCB in wax, tar or silicone is a trick done in other electronics areas that could be adapted to turntables.
Thanks for the SP10 MK2 Kaneta links, what a computer! I may not rebuild it, but a few modifications come to mind, including a healthy plinth! I aint no doctor or architect (or group)! |
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midfi
contributor
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 510
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Looking good Dear Leader, you are motivating me to do something involving a Dual 1228/9... |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Could anyone recommend a good sandwich recipe for plinth material. I had in my mind ply plus something else between. I think the SP10 recipes were two types of wood layered.
Also, if I wanted to replace the slider on the 1200 with a rotary knob, would that work? It would be easier to wood work I am guessing. I don't know if it is a case of soldering the slider wires to a rotary variable resistor.
If I can get a feasible plan together, I can give final plans to my mate and ask for help with the wood work. He might not be so interested when he sees the full design, but at least in planning a project like this, I am already miles ahead to my start position.
By doing and looking into this, I have found out about low and high mass damping theories, and how hard it is to come up with a good armboard recipe. |
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