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mcs.boston
junior member
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 13
Location: Boston, MA
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: Cable Advice -- HELP! |
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| Alright, as I had mentioned in another thread, I am very new to vinyl. I have received an abundance of information on how to get my new T60 up and running correctly and it sounds great! My only issue now is connections. Like an idiot, I bought a pair of unshielded Kimber PBJ cables. What was I thinking... They sound simply amazing with the exception of the hum they cause most noticed in my subwoofer! I moved the cables to my cd player and will just use them with that instead since there seems to be no interference issues there. But now I am stuck using my crappy old monster cables with my new turntable. Does anyone have a good recommendation for a pair of shielded cables in .5 meter length? Please, no audioquest. |
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Letitroll98
vinyl addict
Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 2252
Location: New Joisey
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Zu Cable Oxyfuels easily beat PBJ's in my system, and I like PBJ's. Several members here were wow'd by them, I think they are more of a great value for the price than a super cable beater. They are on auction at eBay, all seem to go for about $35, maybe pricefixing, but who cares when the retail direct from the factory is $119. Nice people too. Here's an example that may be ended by the time you read the thread, just link to their page and they'll have many more for sale. http://cgi.ebay.com/Zu-Cable-O.....19b787faf5 |
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Alec124c41
vinyl addict
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 4977
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Zu Oxyfuel is also made in a 0.75 m length, goes a bit cheaper.
Cheers,
Alec |
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gold928
senior member
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Cosby, Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| I'm using Signal Cable. It's a small company that makes their own cables (as you can tell by the PERSONAL emails). 2ft silver wire phono cable sells for $79.00. I've owned Siltech and can't tell the difference. The company sells directly to the customer and is not that great a secret. Signal Cable is recommended by Stereo Times and some others I can't remember. Best is the return policy, if you don't like them the cables can be returned and the money cheerfully refunded!!!!!!. Here's the link: http://signalcable.com/index.html. I've used PJB'S for years, except I also use silver Signal Cable on my CD transport and Dac. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Don't get suckered. A cable needs to do two jobs - shield the signal from outside interference, and conduct the full signal with no loss anywhere. To do this you need a single or double coper braided cable with low capacitance.
I have just remade all my hi-fi and AV interconnects with Belden 1505F co-ax and std Neutrik connectors. I ended up using 90m of the stuff. I have order another 60m for inventory, if I need to make more. 1505F is double copper braided and has capacitance of 55.7 pf per metre.
If you are not good at soldering, Blue Jeans (based in U.S.) make 1505F cables pre-made. I find them a lot more expensice than DIY, but their product and service is excellent.
Alternatively, you could buy 1505F pre-made on ebay, but I can't vouch for the quality.
I replaced some chord cable with 1505F. The treble was sparkling and sound very clear. This isn't because I have created a wonder product, but I think shows how bad Audiophile Cables are. Some of these claims from cable companies should be investigated under the trade description act laws.
I had a dealer offer me a 1m XLR cable for £125 - LOL! The source signal would have travelled hundreds of feet down cheap Van Damme cable in studio, but he thinks the last metre needs £125. |
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Letitroll98
vinyl addict
Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 2252
Location: New Joisey
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TNTTNT wrote: | | I had a dealer offer me a 1m XLR cable for £125 - LOL! The source signal would have travelled hundreds of feet down cheap Van Damme cable in studio, but he thinks the last metre needs £125. |
Allow me to quote a reply to that argument:
| Quote: | | Of course, any recording already contains the time smearing and distortion of many feet of conventional cables used in recording, mixing and mastering. Despite this, the time coherence of the few feet of cable used in playback is found to be critical to the final reproduced sound quality. An optical analogy is useful in understanding how this can be. An example is a film projector. The film print is very blurred and noisy because of film grain relative to the original scene due to losses in the negative and many steps of processing and duplication using imperfect lenses and film. Despite the "program material" being noisy and distorted, the image projected on the screen is still obviously different and inferior when using a poor quality projection lens when compared with a high quality lens. The quality lens is superior because it is achromatic (no color fringing and sharper focus) and because it has a flat field (entire picture in focus) with little geometrical distortion at the edges. The visual system easily detects a small reduction or increase in distortion and noise in an already distorted and noisy image. The auditory system must be similar in this capability. This is a sophisticated pattern detection ability and seems to be especially sensitive to differences when the comparison is between two different reproductions. |
As stated by ad infinitum, the only people who don't believe cables make a difference are those who haven't listened to good quality cables. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Letitroll,
It is best to agree to disagree on cables, because it analogous of the believers and the athiests (No one will prove who is right). One of a few reasons why I am a cable athiest is I looked into this, and read some papers by a British University. They argued with measurements and theory that a good co-ax cable should be able to convey a signal honestly, as long as the capacitance was reasonably good. The capacitance of the interconnect was relevant because it would interfere with the voltage changes in the cable.
The one thing which would make me considering switching cable religions is if there was a laboratory double blind AB test done. If it could prove that some people could distinguish, I would have to reconsider...have to.
The reason why I wasn't impressed with the £125 XLR is because this type of cable has noise rejection built in. It is the same type of cable used in long mic runs.
Not writing the above to convince those who value cable types, because it is one of those subjects. I hope you don't mind me stating some thoughts, beacuse it can become an emotive topic. |
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josephazannieri
vinyl addict
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 910
Location: Norwalk,Ohio,USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: cable wars |
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Yo cable warriors:
Nobody seems to want to try it, but I suggest that if you want to experiment with cables, you can always rewire one side with the hot-stuff cable and leave the other side with the original cable, and then listen, after switching preamp to mono, first to one side then to the other.
Before you try this compare the sides when they are identically wired, again, switched to mono, just to be sure that there isn't some huge difference caused by speaker placement.
When I have tested this way, with some wiring changes, I have heard a difference, but I am never quite sure whether it's an improvement. I am also never sure whether it's worth big buck$$.
Good luck from the cheap old agnostic!
Joe Z. |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: cable wars |
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| josephazannieri wrote: | Yo cable warriors:
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LOL LOL LOL!!!
I don't think images of Conan the Barbarian and He-Man come to mind immediately.
I still reckon a proper lab experiment would convince me. In your pretty well designed test, it would start pushing towards the theory of cable difference. The only thing how would you know if it wasn't due to speaker placement, room shape and furnishings causing subtle differences.
I love and hate cable debates, you know you should let it lie but keep chatting. It's like talking to a girl at a bar, when you know you should go home.
I was a bit apprehensive about buying 90m of bright yellow Belden 1505F, in case it did sound different and bad. I relaxed because I thought if it did, I would have 89m of high class washing line. |
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Tizzy
junior member
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Essex County
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Ohhh everyone is being so ginger about this one. Lovin' it! I subscribe to TNTTNT's atheist views but hey... there's money to be made and if "esoteric" cables are someone's cup of tea than great.... products like this at least help stimulate the economy if nothing else.  |
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JoeE SP9
vinyl addict
Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 970
Location: Phildelphia, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: |
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In any case the link gold928 provided doesn't work.
BTW: Does your name have anything to do with a Porsche 928? I drive an old Turbo (not a 944) so I was curious
_________________
ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19jr, Rega RB300, Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon cartridges, 2 modified Hafler DH200, 1 Adcom GFA-545, 2 radically modified Dyna MK-III's. Acoustat Spectra 22/SPW-1 (front), Acoustat Model 1(rear), 2 12" Transmission Line subs |
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flavio81
contributor
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 2280
Location: Lima
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TNTTNT wrote: |
I replaced some chord cable with 1505F. The treble was sparkling and sound very clear. This isn't because I have created a wonder product, but I think shows how bad Audiophile Cables are. Some of these claims from cable companies should be investigated under the trade description act laws. |
Dear Leader,
I recall, from the telecommunication engineering classes i had while at the university, that any cheap TV coaxial cable has hundreds of megahertz of bandwidth, about 50pF/m capacitance, while being resilient to external interference.
I don't mean to say "let's use TV cable", my point is that you don't need expensive, exotic tech to make a very good audio cable. Now, the tonearm cable is a more delicate subject, of course.
We can align our nations in the Cable Wars for an unified battle front, but i should remind you, Dear Leader, that there is already a hot battle on another thread specifically dedicated to cables. For the sake of maintaining the forum's order, we should go there instead:
http://www.vinylengine.com/php.....hp?t=21421 |
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TNTTNT
senior member
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 489
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, Yes I agree with Co-ax as a good choice. The cable I chose has 50pf/m capacitance and 2 layers of 94% copper braid shield. It is £3/m and great.
I started reading the link you sent and the first page started to freak me out. It was almost as much as Hans Blix did in the biography Team America. Log on to Youtube and in the search box type Hans Blix Team America and see what I mean.
They mention floating shields which I am sure it more to do with balanced cables and reducing ground hum, not RCA unbalanced cables. I would like these cables to suffer the same fate as Hans Blix in the film extract mentioned above. |
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gold928
senior member
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Cosby, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Don't know why the link didn't work. Just Google Signal Cable and it will come up.
Yes - my name derives from a 928 Porsche. I spent six years restoring it (even polishing the motor), and then sold it. Can't figure out the reason. Same reason I sold a perfect Counterpoint 5.1 I guess.
As for cables - no - I don't advocate high dollar cables. However, I DO advocate good cheap cables (PJB, Signal Cable, Zu, and etc). I proved that theory many times with people who were not into stereo. The one common variable I have found is twisted cables (with the EXCEP[TION of phono cables) better coax every time. They don't have to be Kimber, one can find high quaility wire (Home Depot) and make their own. Besides. we are making it too complicated. If it SOUNDS better than it IS better. One can't listen to stereo equipment foor 35 years or whatever and not know the difference. I don't have to have it proven. However, I guess if I had 1500 or more in a one meter cable I would WANT it to sound better!!!!! |
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Letitroll98
vinyl addict
Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 2252
Location: New Joisey
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| TNTTNT wrote: | Hi Letitroll,
It is best to agree to disagree on cables, because it analogous of the believers and the athiests (No one will prove who is right). One of a few reasons why I am a cable athiest is I looked into this, and read some papers by a British University. They argued with measurements and theory that a good co-ax cable should be able to convey a signal honestly, as long as the capacitance was reasonably good. The capacitance of the interconnect was relevant because it would interfere with the voltage changes in the cable. |
As respectfully as possible, I can't agree to disagree here. My defense for this is that you made the post, and therefore it can be responded to. I'll try to check my usual sarcastic demeanor, as much as possible anyway.
In that vein, I can't believe that is your position, "I read some papers once". So out of hand, without listening or comparing, you take this as gospel. So what kind of system did these guys who went to university and wrote some stuff on paper use to compare different high end cables? I assume the answer is none. They read some papers that some guys who went to university and wrote some stuff on paper wrote. I'm sorry to inform you that I'm unfortunately not the least bit conviced by this evidence.
May I respectfully, yet firmly and with conviction, suggest you actual try some modest high quality audiophile cables before stating an opinion. And my statement stands, there isn't one case of anyone I know of ever listening to high end cables and not becoming a convert, none. Even Luckydog, the biggest skeptic here, is at least investigating the differences he heard in digital transfers of cable samples (doesn't count as a convert, he hasn't listened to cables in his system). The evidence is beyond overwhelming and completely convincing.
| TNTTNT wrote: | | The one thing which would make me considering switching cable religions is if there was a laboratory double blind AB test done. If it could prove that some people could distinguish, I would have to reconsider...have to. |
Laboratory double blind tests with unfamiliar systems only prove who is good at taking double blind test in laboratory conditions. They tell us nothing about differences in components or cables. But for your information, there have been successful double blind tests with skilled subjects that have consistently picked correctly to many multiple of certainty over chance. However I don't count those tests as any more valid than the null result tests, both are flawed. It was posted in Stereophile some years ago.
More importantly, why wouldn't you listen for yourself to see if you noticed any difference? In any case, I wish you continued happy listening whatever your path may be.
| gold928 wrote: | | As for cables - no - I don't advocate high dollar cables. However, I DO advocate good cheap cables (PJB, Signal Cable, Zu, and etc). I proved that theory many times with people who were not into stereo......... One can't listen to stereo equipment foor 35 years or whatever and not know the difference. I don't have to have it proven. However, I guess if I had 1500 or more in a one meter cable I would WANT it to sound better!!!!! |
I sort of agree. I've been moving up in steps to more expensive products and haven't hit a ceiling on improvement yet. There certainly is a cost/benefit crossing point up there somewhere, don't know where that is yet. My most expensive products ($450-$650 range) sound way better than the $100 PBJ types. And to repeat, I really like PBJ's, they're just relegated to the home theater system now. |
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