tell me about my speakers, and speakers in general

[kylehasgeniusbits]

Hey everyone, just joined the forum and am gonna try to post my components and see what people have to say about it. I want to have a good analog system and am willing to pay some money for it, although not unlimited amounts.

At any rate, I have two sets of speakers right now. The set I'm using currently are Lafayette Criterion 2001+'s. They sound good to me, and are in good conditions. The other set I have are 1977 Bose Model 501's. I never tested them against the Lafayettes, but they are good as well. The problem I have, which is why I'm not using them, is that I had them in an outdoor enclosed patio for a while and one of the Bose started making a rumbling noise. I don't know what happened, maybe moisture in there. There isn't a way to get into the speaker I can see. Anyone have any experience with that?

Ideally I would use all four as I have an amp with 1 and 2, A and B channels. Would that work well? Right now the turntable I'm using doesn't hook up to that amp, and the other turntable I have is being fixed, the arm doesn't work right. When I get all that stuff together I'll post that in the turntable forum and see what's up with that. Thanks for any advice, I'm just looking to see if I should upgrade my speakers, and if that one could be helped.

[JoeE SP9]

First, welcome aboard.

Second:
Why would you want to use four speakers to reproduce music that is recorded in only two channels? Ideally you and the speakers should form an equilateral (approximately) triangle with the speakers at two apexes and you at the third. Any other positioning or additional speakers will make a soundstage impossible to achieve.

As for your speakers:

I would upgrade the speakers.

The Lafayette's are old and more than likely have a rolled of top end. They may sound recessed and overly polite when compared to more modern designs. They should also be checked for foam rot if the woofers use foam surrounds. Bose speakers and their other products are almost universally disliked by most "audiophiles". If you like them that is all that matters. Just be prepared for a certain amount of negative comments regarding any Bose product. However if you wish to repair a malfunctioning speaker someone here may be able to help you open the 501's.

If your amplifier doesn't have an input labeled "Phono" you will need to purchase a Phono preamp. The TT will connect to it and it will connect to any available input on your amp.
_________________
ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19jr, Rega RB300, Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon cartridges, 2 modified Hafler DH200, 1 Adcom GFA-545, 2 radically modified Dyna MK-III's. Acoustat Spectra 22/SPW-1 (front), Acoustat Model 1(rear), 2 12" Transmission Line subs

[kylehasgeniusbits]

"Second:
Why would you want to use four speakers to reproduce music that is recorded in only two channels? Ideally you and the speakers should form an equilateral (approximately) triangle with the speakers at two apexes and you at the third. Any other positioning or additional speakers will make a soundstage impossible to achieve."

Well I could have the music in two rooms with four speakers. Two for each channel, so I could (with proper wiring) have two rooms with stereo simultaneously.

Thanks for the reply, any suggestions on speakers? It is news to me that Bose aren't considered good by the "experts." I don't really know anything about it, my speaker knowledge is confined to guitar amplifiers from the 60's, so pretend that I don't know anything. Like I said before though I'm looking for a decent sound without breaking the bank, I'm not in the pursuit of perfection. Honestly I thought my system sounded pretty good, but of course I have nothing to compare it to.

And does anyone have info on opening up a 501 to try and fix that rumble?

[Alec124c41]

In old speakers, the foam surrounds of the woofers will deteriorate n about 15 years, give or take a few. When these let go, the front of the cone sags, and the voice coil rubs the pole piece.
Have you looked at the drivers? Check the surrounds. They can be replaced inexpensively, if you do them yourself.

Cheers,
Alec

[kylehasgeniusbits]

I'll check, but the fact that the noise started after having them in an enclosed patio for the Summer leads me to believe it's something else. So you're saying that if I rip off the foam I can get replacement foam and put it back on fairly easily myself?

[josephazannieri]

Yo Kyle:

How nice to have you join up! Hope that we can help!

The Bose 501's are a relatively conventional speaker system that really isn't that bad. The Bose that audiophiles universally reject are the 901's and there are a milion reasons for that which we don't need to discuss right now.

Lafayette products were typically inexpensive, but, Lafayette made some decent inexpensive speaker systems with Japanese components. I would not reject either speaker out of hand.

Take the grille cloths off the units (usually Velcro or some other easy to remove method) and take a look at the woofer surrounds. They should be complete, unbroken and untorn. The older speakers often have either paper cones with flexible paper edges or treated cloth surrounds, rather than foam. Typically these do not deteriorate in the same way that foam surrounds do. Take a look. Surrounds may be OK. Foam can be replaced, as said by others but if you can find a foam kit that is designed to work with your particular system, you are better off.

Play some music through the systems. Stick your ear up against each individual speaker (woofer, midrange if present, and tweeter) and listen to each one by itself. If one speaker is silent, it may be bad, and there are checks you can do to determine what the failure is.

Push in GENTLY AND CAREFULLY on each woofer cone. Put fingers on opposite sides of cone, so push is even. Listen close and see if you hear scraping sounds as cone moves. Should move about a quarter inch on eight or ten inch speaker. DON'T FORCE IT!!! If If you hear scraping sounds you may have a bad or misaligned voice coil in that speaker. On the 501, the easiest way to open it will probably be to undo the screws that hold the speakers to front panel and lift the speakers right out. Don't know about Lafayette, but maybe the same way. Look at each individual speaker first.
You can also take back panel off if there are screws, but most inexpensive systems have a molded MDF box. You can also pop front panel off, but this can be brutal and dangerous. You might mess the box up.

Bose parts are available at www.oaktreeent.com.

As for the rushing sound, listen all over the speaker, RIGHT UP CLOSE! See if you can determine by listening if it's coming from a speaker, or from a hole in the box, or from some other place. that will give a clue to cause.

I would not go crazy upgrading right now. See if speakers you have are OK, listen some, and then decide if you want to change. You can always send a PM to some forum participant in NJ and see if he or she wants to show off his or her system. If you were in Ohio, I'd invite you to listen to mine.

Proceed. Fear Not!

Good luck from the old speaker builder (since 1963)

Joe Z.

[kylehasgeniusbits]

Thanks a lot. I'm going to try and perform some surgery on my Bose. Lafayette's seem to be working fine. Funny thing about them is that they seem to my ears to sound way better when the "brilliance" nob is turned all the way up.

If I have to destroy my 501's to learn about speakers, that's fine. I've seen them on eBay for <$100. Like I said previous, I'm willing to spend some money but want to find out if the components I have now are any good.

Also funny, I have heard the 901's were very desirable back in the day. Maybe the audiophile reaction is a blow back from undeserved praise?

Tonight I'm going to write down my two TT's and amps and post them up on the forum sometime this week, maybe you guys can advise me as well on those!

Thanks again.

[kylehasgeniusbits]

Ok so I took the grill off of the 501 that was making noise and I think I found the likely culprit.





As you can see, the surround looks ragged around the edges. Actually I can't tell if it's just the surround or also the cone. To be honest I'm not sure how to tell where one part ends and the other begins. All I know is that when I took off the grill some pieces of the surround or cone felt out as it was rotted and broken off. The most telling part of the check was when I pushed the surround in, it made a noise that reminded me of the noise the speaker was making that I didn't like.

My next step is going to be to plug in the speaker and listen to it like this, try and find out if that is the only problem. I saw a repair kit on eBay for 501 surrounds, but wasn't sure if this would address the whole problem if the cone is messed up. Does the cone ever get messed up? Thanks everyone for the help!

[Alec124c41]

Those are dead surrounds. The cones look fine. If the speaker has been working at all, the coils are not broken.
On the web you can find instructions and videos showing you how to replace the foam surrounds. Basicly it involves cleaning off the old stuff by scraping the cone edges with an Exacto knife, carefully, and using a heavier one to cut under the cardboard gasket to get to clean the frame around the edges. Then you glue the foam around the cone, let it dry, and glue the foam around the frame, being careful to center the cone.
Cleaning the old stuff off is messy, so be prepared. Don't rush.

Cheers,
Alec

[josephazannieri]

Yo Kyle:

That 501 has a classic case of bad foam. If you attempt playing it, you should lay the system flat on its back. The noise you are hearing when you play the speaker vertically is probably the voice coil rubbing on the pole pieces. You should be able to remove speaker by undoing the screws that hold it to front panel. If there is adhesive or sealant, you may have to use a putty knife to lift speaker off panel.

If speaker plays OK lying on its back, voice coil may still be centered OK and not be too damaged to work. You can also carefully press the speaker cone toward the magnet and see if the voice coil is rubbing. If voice coil is damaged, you may have to replace or recone the speaker.

There is a repair kit for this speaker available at Orange County Speaker Repair for $29.95.

www.speakerrepair.com. There may be other sources, too.

I won't say it's easy, because you will have to lift the gasket off the edge of speaker, and you will have to carefully clean the mushy foam off speaker cone edge, and be sure that speaker cone edge has not gone bad. If it's OK, it will be flat and circular. But you then just glue the new foam to the old cone and the frame. There are some procedures you must do, and with this speaker you might have to cut off that central dust cover and put plastic shims in to re-center the voice coil, to eliminate the rubbing noise. Refoam kit instructions will usually provide shims and instructions for job.

Provided voice coil is not damaged physically from the misalignment caused by loss of foam, this will be repairable, and you will probably be able to get it back close to original performance.

Good luck, again, from the old speaker builder!

Joe Z.

[Alec124c41]

The cone is held straight by the foam surrounds in the front, and a "spider" at the back. with the foam gone, it can sag, so the coil assembly is at an angle to the magnet structure. It will rub unless you hold it straight, or the foam does.
If you decide to shim the coil when you glue the foam, do not remove the dustcap before you are finished cleaning all the edges, and are ready to glue.
I have used strips of paper, or business card, for shims, successfully.

Cheers,
Alec

[josephazannieri]

Yo Kyle:

It appears that Alec has been filling in some holes and saying some things that I have left unsaid, and I thank him for that.

I think he and I agree that the Bose speaker can probably be repaired and he and I have pretty much the same attitude, which is "make it play!"

His suggestion about recentering the voice coil with index card stock, if needed, and his reminder that, if you are going to recenter the coil, to not take the dust cover off until after the old foam is cleaned off are useful suggestions, and I agree with him. Don't want any stray crud in the voice coil area.

For the cost of a refoam job, you might have a decent starter speaker system here. If you are uneasy about trying, there are merchants who will refoam or recone the speaker for you, but it's more expensive, and you don't learn by doing.

Good luck from that agreeable old guy,

Joe Z.

[kylehasgeniusbits]

Thanks guys. I'm going to get the refoam kit and see what I can do. When I push the cone it makes a noise like the noise I hear playing the speaker, does that mean it's misaligned?

[JoeE SP9]

Without the foam surround holding the cone in proper alignment it will almost always make noise when manually moved. The surround helps hold it in the proper alignment.
_________________
ARC SP9 MKIII, VPI HW19jr, Rega RB300, Marcof PPA1, Shure, Sumiko, Ortofon cartridges, 2 modified Hafler DH200, 1 Adcom GFA-545, 2 radically modified Dyna MK-III's. Acoustat Spectra 22/SPW-1 (front), Acoustat Model 1(rear), 2 12" Transmission Line subs

[Alec124c41]

You should be able to find a carefully centered position where you can push the speaker without rubbing. This is why centering is important..

Cheers,
Alec