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Interconnects (RCA CABLES) - Bang for Buck?
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Letitroll98
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CallMeJoe wrote:
If the fact that signals are propagating through your cables at a mere 200,000 km/sec introduces any audible effects, your interconnects are far, far too long...

Hee hee, yes, a bit too long maybe. But I wanted a home in the Bahamas and there are just no good audio stores there and I didn't want to pack up my system here so....oh, nevermind.

Of course you realize I was wondering about the difference in propagation speed in bare wire vs insulated wire. Not that you would use bare wire, but would the "air dielectric" noted above then actually be a "faster" cable than one with, for example, Teflon insulation?
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Luckydog
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Propagation velocity in cables makes a difference only when the propagation time has some significance in relation to the period of frequencies or absolute times involved with a signal. At audio, such delays are way way way way way shorter than either. So although cables are different this way, it doesn't make any sense to me that prop velocity would be any factor in conveyance of audio signals.

I'm thinking through some notions that it's a mistake to think about short runs of audio frequency 'shielded enclosed cable' as coax. Lots of coax theory might not apply, as I say still working on the math. Hope to post more when I've got something more tangible to say.

Did someone say 'faster cables?' or was it a dream/nightmare ?? Wink
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Letitroll98
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckydog wrote:
Did someone say 'faster cables?' or was it a dream/nightmare ?? Wink

Yes, purely tongue in cheek though, thus the quotation marks. But seriously, there is no effect attributed to the dielectric insulation used in audio interconnect cables? This would be a major shock to those whose design, sell and listen to audio cables.

And something that hasn't been touched in this discussion. What about connectors: termination, solder or solderless, materials, unbalanced vs balanced, etc. This seems like the weak link in all of the theory. Fine for wires, what happens when all of that hits the RCA connectors?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letitroll98 wrote:
But seriously, there is no effect attributed to the dielectric insulation used in audio interconnect cables? This would be a major shock to those whose design, sell and listen to audio cables.
Perhaps there is an audible effect from choice of 'dialectric' material, but perhaps it's not related to transmission line effects such as prop velocity?

Quote:
And something that hasn't been touched in this discussion. What about connectors: termination, solder or solderless, materials, unbalanced vs balanced, etc. This seems like the weak link in all of the theory. Fine for wires, what happens when all of that hits the RCA connectors?

Yes, some interesting physics happens at the contact junction of dissimilar metals, some properties of such junctions resemble sources of non-linearities. IMO that's also well worth pursuing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know if silver interconnects are generally soldered or crimped, and if soldered is that with tin/lead or something else ?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckydog wrote:
Anyone know if silver interconnects are generally soldered or crimped, and if soldered is that with tin/lead or something else ?

Runs roughly 70/30 in favor of soldering, no real statistics here, just a guess from reading lots of press. Those in favor of high pressure crimping generally point to solder as the culprit in poor sounding connections. Zu Cable, the company that has been the subject of several examples on a couple of threads lately, uses high pressure crimps, or cold welding as they a wont to call it, because of this reasoning.

Wet solder is of course tin/lead composite, sometimes in audio applications a small percentage of silver is added like WBT's 4% product or Wonder Solder Ultraclear, a proprietary blend of tin/lead/silver. Silver, or hard solders of up to 60-70% silver, was not used because of the high temps needed to melt the solder. This is all changing because of the lead free requirements of RoHS, so you have the lead free Wonder Solder and Eichmann silver solders out now, I know nothing about them as I assume they are Euro specific. I've heard that George Cardas' silver/copper/lead/tin mix is the best commercially available audio-specific solder, never used it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came across this in the Stereophile test report of the AHT phono, and thought you might find it of interest:

"The Purist interconnect sounded much like their speaker cable, but was perhaps a touch too restrained with the AHT unit. The reasonably priced Raj cables by Pure Logic proved a good match. This silver-coated copper cable has a slider that's used to change the point at which the two negative legs of the wire cross the positive leg, thus "tuning" the cable—much like setting VTA. Pull the slider one way for brighter sound, the other for duller."

Re: silver solder - I read some place that 4% is the maximum amount of silver that will work. I'm not sure if temp is the reason, but it makes sense. Radio Shack has been selling lead free silver solder, in 2% and 4% for years. I found it much harder to work with and had the feeling that I would be better off using regular 60/40. Hope you Euro guys have something better to use.
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Mitsuman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Far from boutique, and very reasonably priced. I use these from my preamp to my power amp, and from my variable out on my CDP into my power amp. I dare you to find a better made cable for the price.

http://www.knukonceptz.com/pro.....A%20Kables

I have also had good luck with these. If you look closely, they look identical and appear to have the same connectors as the DH Labs BL-1 for a fraction of the cost.



http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-2155

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except for the sensible recommendations of where to find said cables, I read this thread and muttered...oh dear Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall
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Luckydog
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I raised the question of contact method because the thread threw up the matter of contact between dissimilar metals. I've been looking at possible causes of non-linearities that might account for some of the reported differences in cables, mostly because the whole issue fascinates me, and would love to understand it.

For example I stumbled across a patent US Patent 6275050 - Apparatus and method to detect corrosion in metal junctions
Quote:
A corroded metal junction acts as a nonlinear device. It generates harmonics and other nonlinear products (such as intermodulation) of any signals applied to the junction. The presence of relatively high level harmonics and/or intermodulation products indicates directly that corrosion has occurred. To detect corrosion in a metal junction, one couples a fundamental frequency signal (f0) into the junction and tests for harmonics of that frequency, especially the third harmonic.


Silver seems an excellent candidate for discusion of this type of mechanism. It is far more electropositive than copper/tin/lead, and oxidises/reduces readily, and the oxide can exhibit some semi-conductor properties. Contact potential for say silver/tin is a lot higher than say copper/tin. Metal-metal junction physics are complex though, but well worth a look for those of us motivated to try to undersrand what's really going on.

Crimped connections have potential ('scuse pun) to be simpler to analyse and physically different than solder connections at the junction. No impurities from flux, for example, to complicate the metal-metal junction.

Should say I'm not advocating any connection method or material, just seeking to understand and explore this potential difference (all right, I meant that one !). I'm still looking for sources of IMD that might account for observations in different systems, and at face value metal-metal junctions might profer a source of non-linearities, perhaps. That's news to me, and worth discusion IMO.
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